D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[ezo]

If we compare:
"You gain the ability to fly"
To..
"You gain the supernatural ability to fly"

For myself, anyway, it is more:

"You can learn to fly because you're human"

vs.

"You gain the supernatural ability to fly because of (insert feature here)"

Now, of course there are various levels of supernatural abilities, and this one (flying) is ore obviously "supernatural" compared to some of the others we've touched on in the thread.

However, I think I've belabored this point enough. If anyone actually wants to discuss features to give martials (magical or otherwise), I'll probably chime in again.

 

[Raiztt]

Math is not supernatural.

Unironically there is a very active debate about whether or not math can be accommodated by a broadly naturalist/physicalist framework.

In other words, there is very much a debate about whether or not math is supernatural.

patterns that allow for impossible things.

"Allow" implies possible. If something is possible, it cannot be impossible. It cannot be the case that [X and ~X].

 

[Gammadoodler]

For myself, anyway, it is more:

"You can learn to fly because you're human"

vs.

"You gain the supernatural ability to fly because of (insert feature here)"

Now, of course there are various levels of supernatural abilities, and this one (flying) is ore obviously "supernatural" compared to some of the others we've touched on in the thread.

However, I think I've belabored this point enough. If anyone actually wants to discuss features to give martials (magical or otherwise), I'll probably chime in again.

For my part..

"because of (insert feature here)"

..would go on both sides of the comparison (apples to apples and all that).

My only interest in "humanity" here is that I do not think that it should be a relevant factor for limiting class abilities.

 

[ezo]

My only interest in "humanity" here is that I do nor think that it should be a relevant factor for limiting class abilities.

Fair enough and I agree because --- it isn't, is it?

 

[Chaosmancer]

That's fair. We just have different views.

Let me put it this way: if I took a human out of the D&D world and brought them to Earth in real life, they would simply be human. None of the supernatural things they could do in their D&D world would be possible here. Their training and special qualities gained from being a PC, NPC, or creature would be gone completely in most cases or insanely reduced in the others.

For instance, while people survive falls from incredible heights, sometimes with only minor injuries!, the fact a high-level D&D PC could survive fall after fall and fully recover with 8 hours of sleep and rest wouldn't fly on Earth. They'd be fortunate to live through one such fall.

Did you ever see the movie Last Action Hero (not one of Arnold's best movies, but it has its charms)? An action-movie character is brought "out of the movie" and into real life. Suddenly, he bleeds and feels pain, gets tired, and things just don't "work" the way he is used to them working in his "action movie universe". He's still a big, strong guy, though, but just not what he was "in the movie".

That is why I say humans in D&D are just humans. They, in and of themselves, are not supernatural or extraordinary compared to humans on Earth. The fact they live in a "fantasy world", can become PCs, etc. and receive the training involved with their class in that fantasy world allows them to do things we would find supernatural.

I'm not sure I agree with the assumption that if they were removed from "DnD World" that they would lose their abilities. IT becomes a question of how theoritical metaphysics works. If magic ~ Gravity, bringing a high-gravity species to earth would not change their biological functions. It would kill them, but they would retain their features gained.

But, more pertinently, we are never removing them from the DnD world, so the question cannot help us with anything actually in the DnD world.

 

[Chaosmancer]

IMO it's the least relevant perspective, we engage with the work on it's own terms, if the work tells us something isn't supernatural then we must consider it not supernatural.

I will disagree here, because DnD doesn't CARE if something is supernatural. DnD cares if something is magical, specifically if something is a spell, and only because of dispel magic, counterspell, and Anti-magic fields.

For example, DnD does not care that Ghosts are supernatural. It cares that they are ethereal, and that they are undead, but only in regards to weapon damage and specific triggers.

I cannot think of any time that the game of DnD, in its own terms, makes the distinction between supernatural and mundane. Only magical and non-magical, and only in the context of counter-triggers.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Fair enough and I agree because --- it isn't, is it?

Whether it should be seems to be the question.

For those of us who would like access to more "beyond earth human" capability on the fighter chassis, the argument we keep circling into is that, because the ability is "beyond earth human", we must first explain in detail how the characters are able to obtain such abilities...and...that explanation cannot exclude explicit reference to the supernatural.

So we cannot get these abilities unless we provide an explanation we think is unecessary to get past a standard we think is irrelevant and that explanation has to include thematic elements we dislike.

 

[ECMO3]

Yeah no, even if you were to consider battlemaster, extra attack action surge and all the rest of it ‘supernatural’ which I don’t,

Some of the battlemaster maneuvers are clearly supernatural - Rally, Goading Attack, Menacing Attack, Bait and Switch and sweeping attack come immediately to mind. Others maneuvers aren't but those are IMO.

The things with the maneuvers above is they are explicitly contrary to physics. You hit someone with a weapon and someone else is wounded? You and someone else switch places.?

I’m in a few threads right now, is this the one already having the damage isn’t MeatPoints argument.

No Second Wind. At first level I can get stabbed with a dagger, be close to bleeding out and completely heal myself .... and do it multiple times a day.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Some of the battlemaster maneuvers are clearly supernatural - Rally, Goading Attack, Menacing Attack, Bait and Switch and sweeping attack come immediately to mind. Others maneuvers aren't but those are IMO.

The things with the maneuvers above is they are explicitly contrary to physics. You hit someone with a weapon and someone else is wounded? You and someone else switch places.?



No Second Wind. At first level I can get stabbed with a dagger, be close to bleeding out and completely heal myself .... and do it multiple times a day.

Rallying, goading and menacing are things fighters have been doing to each other since fighting was a thing.

You can see that stuff happen in most any NFL or NBA game.

Bait and Switch is closer, but it isn't that different from a pick and roll play in basketball.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think it's the difference in perspective.

The real world perspective you insist on using does not hold any value for us. As demonstrated, coding things using that perspective would only tell us things we already know (and that we think basically everyone should already know).

And..

Simultaneously, where such coding could impact setting functionality from the setting perspective (which we care about), it is intrusive.

I understand your argument, but I'm just never going to agree with it.