Planescape The Great Wheel, the World Axis, and the Abyss

[Xeviat]

Hi y'all. For ages, I've been running games in my own setting, but I've been drawn back to core D&D due to getting a hold of the 2E Planescape books. But, I really liked some of the 4E World Axis changes as well (like Angels serve all gods, not just good ones). But, I also love all the lore from Planescape, so I'm playing with some blending of the two.

One problem that I run into is what to do with the Abyss. I like the Great Wheel and want to keep the 16 aligned outer planes as planes accessible from the Astral Sea, but I do like the notion of demons as corrupted elementals and the Abyss being a wound in the Elemental Chaos.

So, the question is then, what was the Abyss before the shard of evil was planted in it, boring a hole through reality? The abyss could both be accessible from the astral sea (getting you to the Plane of Infinite Portals), and also be a conduit that bores to and through the elemental chaos. It could have been the home of the Oberyths, the plane of madness.

Or, I could replace the Abyss as an outer plane with something else.

 

[Charlaquin]

How are you blending the two models? I take it your outer planes are part of the astral sea? “Where” is the elemental chaos relative to them and the material plane and it’s reflections?

 

[Storyteller Hero]

There was no "before". The Abyss was formed BY the Shard of Evil. The Shard of Evil itself was tossed into the Elemental Chaos, then started warping reality to form planar layers.

 

[Xeviat]

How are you blending the two models? I take it your outer planes are part of the astral sea? “Where” is the elemental chaos relative to them and the material plane and it’s reflections?

Mostly it's replacing the Astral Plane with the Astral Sea (which also makes it easy to use Spell Jammer stuff too). Like 4E, Astral Sea is upper and Elemental Chaos is lower, with the world's of the material being in between.

So the Astral Sea touches both the outer planes and the material planes, while the elemental chaos touches the material planes and not the astral.

In 4E, the abyss was created when the shard of evil was planted in the elemental chaos, but that would leave a CE hole in the outer planes.

 

[Xeviat]

There was no "before". The Abyss was formed BY the Shard of Evil. The Shard of Evil itself was tossed into the Elemental Chaos, then started warping reality to form planar layers.

Right. What I'm saying is if I use that, then there's no CE outer plane. So I'm trying to figure out a reconciliation; either there's a different CE outer plane separate from the abyss, or the abyss is an outer plane that plunges through reality and bores through the elemental chaos (meaning it's a quick but dangerous connection between the astral and the elemental).

 

[jmartkdr2]

Perhaps the Abyss wraps around, so to speak? Or more likely the Astral Sea does - instead of it being exclusively above, if you sail far enough you could end up below.

Idea 2 is you need an Astral submarine to get to the Elemental chaos, although some demons will occasionally find a way to swim up to the 'surface' of the Astral Sea and gain footholds in unoccupied divine realms or drifting ships (or just take such a place over).

 

[Charlaquin]

Mostly it's replacing the Astral Plane with the Astral Sea (which also makes it easy to use Spell Jammer stuff too). Like 4E, Astral Sea is upper and Elemental Chaos is lower, with the world's of the material being in between.

So the Astral Sea touches both the outer planes and the material planes, while the elemental chaos touches the material planes and not the astral.

In 4E, the abyss was created when the shard of evil was planted in the elemental chaos, but that would leave a CE hole in the outer planes.

Why does the abyss need to be mutually exclusive with a Chaotic Evil outer plane? You could have both.

 

[Maxperson]

Right. What I'm saying is if I use that, then there's no CE outer plane. So I'm trying to figure out a reconciliation; either there's a different CE outer plane separate from the abyss, or the abyss is an outer plane that plunges through reality and bores through the elemental chaos (meaning it's a quick but dangerous connection between the astral and the elemental).

Carceri is NE, CE. If you ditch the neutral portion, it can become the new "Abyss" and be the CE plane.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Maybe the shard of evil was tossed into the CE outer plane boring through the plane into the elemental chaos, corrupting everything in its path

 

[Voadam]

I would think original Abyss CE with non-tanari and then shard of evil into elemental chaos creating tanari and calving off part of the Chaos to invade and merge with the Abyss.