Sublime Druid - Crusader maneuvers instead of spells

[adamda]

Hello,

I was wondering if it seems fair enough to swap out a Druid's spellcasting for the maneuvers/stances of a crusader from the Book of Nine Swords. The druid in question is using the Player's Handbook 2 variant Shapeshift instead of Wildshape, and that's a significant point considering a "normal" druid would take Natural Spell and cast up a storm, whereas a shapeshift druid cannot do that but would be able to benefit from maneuvers and stances while shifted. The druid would keep all of it's abilities other than spellcasting, and only gain the maneuver/stances of the crusader, not any of it's other class abilities.

Extremely broken? Extremely weak? Please advise!

 

[Arkhandus]

Hm. I don't think it's a good idea.

Shapeshift is balanced by not being able to cast spells in the new forms. Druids get some huge bonuses to Strength, natural armor, size, and stuff through Shapeshift (though they start off minor enough at low levels).

Replacing the spells with new offensive and defensive abilities of similar potency (and more frequent use) that could be used even while shapeshifted would only break the druid further than it already is.

Now, if you proposed replacing the spellcasting AND wild shape/shapeshift with Crusader maneuvers, there'd be no problem, it'd even be kinda weak probably and deserve a few bonus feats or one or two other Crusader class features.

 

[Nifft]

Now, if you proposed replacing the spellcasting AND wild shape/shapeshift

Er... how would that leave anything resembling a Druid?

Anyway. I'd probably base the class off the Warblade instead of the Crusader. The Warblade's recovery mechanism is a Swift action, and this conflicts with Shapeshifting, and that's a good thing.

For Disciplines, I'd give them:
Iron Heart -> Devoted Spirit (healing, control)
White Raven -> Desert Wind (fire, speed)
Stone Dragon (keep)
Tiger Claw (keep)
Diamond Mind -> Dunno. Maybe replace with Setting Sun, maybe just drop.


Shapeshifting: This should conflict with Stances. I'd suggest that you assign a "level" to each shape, and require that the sum of the shape level + stance level be below the character's initiator level. (Or something like that.)

The first shape would be 2nd level, so he could Shapeshift and maintain a 1st level Stance starting at 4th level.


That's a start. Now you have to think about how (and if) you want to integrate all the other hidden class features (atonement, awaken, etc.) which were cleverly disguised as spells.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Asurya]

quote Nifft: Anyway. I'd probably base the class off the Warblade instead of the Crusader. The Warblade's recovery mechanism is a Swift action, and this conflicts with Shapeshifting, and that's a good thing.

I would tend to give them warblade recovery, but not for the same reason: the druid spells are CHOSEN after sleep time, Crusader UNDERGO* randomness in the "weapon" at his hand.
True, warblade recovering mechanism burns your swift action, BUT nothing prevents you to take said action while shifted... The only impact it will have is you won't be able to recover and change shape in the same round.


I side with you for the school access, trashing Diamond mind (not that it is bad, just that it does not fit the archetype).


quote Nifft: Shapeshifting: This should conflict with Stances. I'd suggest that you assign a "level" to each shape, and require that the sum of the shape level + stance level be below the character's initiator level. (Or something like that.)

this idea is neat!


quote Nifft: Now you have to think about how (and if) you want to integrate all the other hidden class features (atonement, awaken, etc.) which were cleverly disguised as spells.
there still are the rituals (link) to emulate said spells.

--
* as someone else said about it "Randomly choosing is a pile of awesomeness is sill awesome"

 

[Bladesong]

I have been trying to balance out a non-spell casting Druid for a couple of days now, so I would really like to see what you come up with.
I have been trying to somehow combine the Shapeshift variant (at least the "no limit to number of shifts in a day" part of it) with the totem warrior from Arcana Unearthed. Its not quite there yet.

 

[Asurya]

Oh, I forgot:
it is widely acknowledge that maneuvers are far from the power level of spells (yes even taking the frequency argument into consideration), so you should not trouble yourself about about overpowering the class, if one thing, you decrease its uberness by removing the spells.

@bladesong: you could also takea look at the MoI::Totemist class, several people* used it as the "replacement Druid" until the "official nerf" was printed out in PHb2.

--
* not just random people I know, those I speak about here have in-depth knowledge of the game and balance.

 

[Bladesong]

you could also takea look at the MoI::Totemist class, several people* used it as the "replacement Druid" until the "official nerf" was printed out in PHb2.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I am not looking to replace number of spells per day with number of "something elses" per day. I am looking for set abilities. If you are familiar with the totem warrior from AU or AE, you have a better understanding of what I am looking for.

I want them to be able to shapechange from level one, into the animal type they choose with abilities to increase as they go up in level...so a badger druid will be something like a dire badger druid at high levels (but comparable to any character of the same level), but he gets other abilities based on a badger when in his normal form (i.e. like toughness, rage, things like that). Something like the Diablo II druid without all the spell-like stuff would be even better.

Which is why I hope this thread leads to something uselful.

 

[Arkhandus]

Asurya, the Shapeshift variant from PHB2 normally does not allow spellcasting while in the shapeshifted forms. That's part of its balance. Replacing the spells with maneuvers, which could be used regardless of form, is a huge power boost for the shapeshifted Druid.

Normally, if they were using standard Wild Shape, it'd probably be fine to just swap the spellcasting for maneuvers. At the very least, it wouldn't be any different from the Druid taking Natural Spell to cast in wild shapes. But the Shapeshift variant doesn't allow spellcasting even through Natural Spell, unless the Druid returns to their normal form.

I suppose it might be fine if you keep the Shapeshift variant in use, but replace the spellcasting with half advancement in maneuvers. Say, every odd-numbered Druid level gives 1 level worth of maneuvers/stances as per a Crusader, or a Warblade, or a Swordsage. Probably set their allowed disciplines differently though.

Most appropriate ones would be Desert Wind, Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, and Tiger Claw.

 

[Nifft]

Asurya, the Shapeshift variant from PHB2 normally does not allow spellcasting while in the shapeshifted forms. That's part of its balance.

The Shapeshift variant is a nerf. It's not balanced against Wild Shape -- it's a nerf. Spellcasting while shapeshfted is NOT a huge part of the balance, though -- since you can shapeshift an unlimited number of times each day, and you can shapeshift as a Swift action. Thus, it's trivial to do the following:

Round 1: Shapeshift (human); cast a spell; move.
Round 2: Shapeshift (animal); full attack.

Normally, if they were using standard Wild Shape, it'd probably be fine to just swap the spellcasting for maneuvers. At the very least, it wouldn't be any different from the Druid taking Natural Spell to cast in wild shapes. But the Shapeshift variant doesn't allow spellcasting even through Natural Spell, unless the Druid returns to their normal form.

... but that's NOT the point of Shapeshift. The point is that the Druid has a fixed number of forms with fixed movement modes, with bonuses to the Druid's existing stats. This is a HUGE nerf, because normal Wild Shape allows scouting, flight, stealth, swimming, bonus feats, special attacks like Trip and Pounce, and of course normal Wild Shape replaces the Druid's stats, so the only stat the Druid actually needs above level 5 are Wisdom and Constitution.

Your claims about something being more balanced with regular Wild Shape than it would be with Shapeshift make me suspect you don't really get the Shapeshift variant.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Machiavelli]

Ooooo, now I have ALWAYS been a fan of the Shapeshift druid, so this looks excellent. I like Nifft's idea of subtracting initiator levels based on which shapeshift form you are using. Heck, he pretty much hit all of the points I would want to consider for making a sublime druid myself. A few very "druidy" class abilities would need to replace key druid spells, much as the maneuvers replace all of the druid's self-buff spells. Namely, I believe that awakening plants is a classic druid ability. Healing is less important, but still well worth considering. The animal companion is a very strong ally, but gaining shapeshifting at 1st level helps to offset the loss, and being able to combine stances with shapeshift forms at 4th level can help to offset the loss of tactical flexibility from thenceforth.