Level Up (A5E) Spike Growth and you

[evildmguy]

This came up in the game last night. I don't use 5E much but my group has compromised on LU and enjoys it. I did go looking for an answer and found the "Command and Spike Growth" thread but this is more specific to Spike Growth.

Spike Growth seems to be straight from the 5E PH and I find it very ambiguous. I'm going to explain our questions, what we did, and then ask what others did.

I think what I don't like about 5E, which is also 1E/2E, is how little the designers talk about the ideas behind something. Take Spike Growth. Is it meant to be offensive and cast on top of people? Or is it meant as defensive, cast on an area that the enemy will go through? The wording implies that anyone in the Spike Growth knows it is there, so doesn't need to make a Perception check. The Rare version then muddies that by saying it can't be noticed until it inflicts damage. Even if they started in the area?

Then, does this really not allow for any way not to take damage? That seems really powerful for a second level spell. If that's the case, why don't those in the area take damage when it appears?

In the end, we decided this. The spell is meant as a defensive spell, put in an area an enemy might move through. They can make a Perception check to notice it before moving through it. If they start in it, they don't need to make a check as they know it's there and don't take damage unless they move. Once they know it is there, they can either avoid the area or move at half speed as if difficult terrain through it to avoid damage. This worked well and did what they wanted, which was delay the bad guys an extra round from getting to them.

Some things not covered that we discussed. I ruled since it is a concentration spell, the druid can move it on his turn within range. Anyone in the area where it was or moved to knows it is there. Outside of it, they need to make a Perception check again to figure out it moved. This is a house rule of course, merely explaining what I did with it.

With the rare spell, we talked about it, and outside of the area, it takes damage to know it is there. Even if you are in the area, it takes a Perception check to realize what happened. Then half movement again.

What have others done?

Thanks!

 

[xiphumor]

This came up in the game last night. I don't use 5E much but my group has compromised on LU and enjoys it. I did go looking for an answer and found the "Command and Spike Growth" thread but this is more specific to Spike Growth.

Spike Growth seems to be straight from the 5E PH and I find it very ambiguous. I'm going to explain our questions, what we did, and then ask what others did.

I think what I don't like about 5E, which is also 1E/2E, is how little the designers talk about the ideas behind something. Take Spike Growth. Is it meant to be offensive and cast on top of people? Or is it meant as defensive, cast on an area that the enemy will go through? The wording implies that anyone in the Spike Growth knows it is there, so doesn't need to make a Perception check. The Rare version then muddies that by saying it can't be noticed until it inflicts damage. Even if they started in the area?

Then, does this really not allow for any way not to take damage? That seems really powerful for a second level spell. If that's the case, why don't those in the area take damage when it appears?

In the end, we decided this. The spell is meant as a defensive spell, put in an area an enemy might move through. They can make a Perception check to notice it before moving through it. If they start in it, they don't need to make a check as they know it's there and don't take damage unless they move. Once they know it is there, they can either avoid the area or move at half speed as if difficult terrain through it to avoid damage. This worked well and did what they wanted, which was delay the bad guys an extra round from getting to them.

Some things not covered that we discussed. I ruled since it is a concentration spell, the druid can move it on his turn within range. Anyone in the area where it was or moved to knows it is there. Outside of it, they need to make a Perception check again to figure out it moved. This is a house rule of course, merely explaining what I did with it.

With the rare spell, we talked about it, and outside of the area, it takes damage to know it is there. Even if you are in the area, it takes a Perception check to realize what happened. Then half movement again.

What have others done?

Thanks!

I think you could cast it offensively or defensively, and the design intent is intentionally kept quiet to encourage people to think of different ways to use it. And yes, if you are in the area or able to see the area when it’s cast, no Perception check is required. And yes, the rare version is stronger and can’t be noticed until you take damage. Rare versions are always stronger. That’s the point of rare spells.

However, I would note one thing: Spike Growth has VSM components, so anyone in the area could see or hear the caster (presumably a druid) cast the spell. I would allow an Arcana (or maybe a Nature) check to identify which spell was cast, probably using the spell save DC + 2 on account of it being a rare spell.

However, you can’t move at half speed to avoid the damage as though it’s difficult terrain. It simply is difficult terrain. It reduces your speed and causes damage when you move through it. The spikes are presumably too thick to avoid.

 

[evildmguy]

I think you could cast it offensively or defensively, and the design intent is intentionally kept quiet to encourage people to think of different ways to use it. And yes, if you are in the area or able to see the area when it’s cast, no Perception check is required. And yes, the rare version is stronger and can’t be noticed until you take damage. Rare versions are always stronger. That’s the point of rare spells.

Those are good points with regards to not spelling out their design. I do like to be surprised by new twists and interpretations of spells. I do think that a combat spell like this one, should have a few more details. Or at least guidance. Obviously, just my opinion.

However, I would note one thing: Spike Growth has VSM components, so anyone in the area could see or hear the caster (presumably a druid) cast the spell. I would allow an Arcana (or maybe a Nature) check to identify which spell was cast, probably using the spell save DC + 2 on account of it being a rare spell.

I do understand this but that's not what the spell says. It specifically calls out that if someone can't see the area when it is cast, it then takes a Perception check right before entering it. In other words, yes, they know a spell was cast but if they didn't see where, it doesn't really matter if they identified Spike Growth.

In this case, it wasn't the rare spell that was used. I was merely saying that the wording of the rare spell seemed to confirm that it doesn't matter if they know what was cast unless they saw where.

However, you can’t move at half speed to avoid the damage as though it’s difficult terrain. It simply is difficult terrain. It reduces your speed and causes damage when you move through it. The spikes are presumably too thick to avoid.

To be clear on this. I understand what you are saying but I reject it because used against the PCs, this is TPK territory. A druid enemy with a group of friends can cast this at third level. Putting a third level party in this, centered on the casters, means auto damage AND slow movement to get out and attack. If the druid has friends with bows, I don't see how the party makes it. This is due to receiving anywhere from 2d4 to 8d4 no save, no avoid damage to get out of the area of effect. While under fire. That's why I allowed half movement to negate. It still took one enemy who was at the center a full round to get out.

I do thank you for the response! I hope I didn't come off as too harsh. I merely think that this interpretation makes this spell really powerful. Imagine a group that has to go against a circle of evil druids and the druids cast overlapping spike growths. Then another druid puts wind wall up, and probably other spells I don't know, to protect against projectiles. I mean, ouch! Nasty! Of course, now I have to do that!

Thanks!

 

[xiphumor]

No worries! And I’ve been on the receiving end of this spell and barely made it out alive while the rest of my party was taken hostage. However, there is one other way to get out: the spell is concentration. If you can break the caster’s concentration, the spike’s disappear and you’re home free. This is a great time to cast a 1st level Magic Missile, because the caster has to make three concentration checks.