Spell List vs Ritual List

[JohnSnow]

Exactly, and I have the strong impression WotC feels the same way. Opening locks and bypassing traps is rogue territory. It's okay for wizards to have an outpost in that territory, but only an outpost; there must be substantial drawbacks for a wizard to open locks compared to a rogue or other skill-monkey.

I think the best case scenario would be if they dumped the spell "knock" and instead gave wizards the ability to use some form "prestidigitation" (telekinesis basically) to attempt to open locks. The best way to handle it would probably be something like:

"Arcane Trickster: you may make an Arcane skill check in place of a Thievery check."

That way, the spell isn't "auto-open." It's just a way for the wizard to "take a crack at it."

 

[Khaim]

"Arcane Trickster: you may make an Arcane skill check in place of a Thievery check."

That's a really powerful ability. Allowing one skill to substitute for another is not something to be done lightly. Conditionally allowing it might work, but even then I'd probably put it two or more feats down the line.

 

[WereMike]

I like the idea that a Knock spell only removes a magical seal/lock. Perhaps create a spell called Skeleton Key that magically unlocks mechanical locks?

Also, PC wizards in my campaign have made clever use of 0-level spells like Open/Close and Mage Hand. Mage Hand (ranged 5 pound force effect) was particularly useful for throwing switches, levers, or grabbing a key-ring off a table or peg.

I wonder if cantrips will become at-will powers?

 

[Dross]

I like the idea that a Knock spell only removes a magical seal/lock. Perhaps create a spell called Skeleton Key that magically unlocks mechanical locks?

Also, PC wizards in my campaign have made clever use of 0-level spells like Open/Close and Mage Hand. Mage Hand (ranged 5 pound force effect) was particularly useful for throwing switches, levers, or grabbing a key-ring off a table or peg.

I wonder if cantrips will become at-will powers?

Prestidigitation had the option to be on all the time. Did anyone here try it and how did they find it?

 

[WereMike]

Prestidigitation had the option to be on all the time. Did anyone here try it and how did they find it?

In my campaign, a player always found a way to use this spell creatively.

Example 1: Our rogue kills an NPC criminal (who happens to be related to the local guard captain) in a messy way; blood everywhere. As the guards are closing in (but still out of sight), the wizard uses Prestidigitation to "clean up" the rogue. When the guards round the corner, the group Bluffs them. "The killers went that way!". The fact that there were no bloodstains on the group helped their bluff.

Example 2: Our wizard uses the spell to "sour" some food at an elegant dinner, prompting a diversion that helped the group and socially embarrassing the host (who was a the villain of this particular adventure arc).

Mostly, the spell was interesting to use as a tool to help "flavor" the campaign. Players used it for style-points, to make social interactions more interesting, etc. Unseen Servant was also used to surprising effects sometimes.

 

[Ahglock]

I hope they are rituals and I hope they only open magically "locked" devices. I'd like to see a minute long ritual to magically seal or unseal a door. I don't want a mage unlocking stuff, otherwise we're back to mages eliminating the need for skills. The "rogue" should be the one sneaking around the combat to pop the shackles off the prisoner, not the mage. At least in my games, that's what I'd prefer to see. Obviously I can and will houserule it if this is not the case, but it seems like bad design to create spells that eliminate skill use.

Considering how you have to chant and jesture to cast a spell, knock really isn't any different than a fighter saying i kick the door in or I smash the chains with my axe. What they really need to change is charged items so you can't easily get a wand of knock.

 

[DreamChaser]

Based on the statements that we won't be forced to choose between attack spells and useful spells, I think it's fairly safe to say that knock will be a ritual.

I didn't interpret this information the same way...

Currently, my archivist has to choose whether to prepare Burrow, Divine Insight, or Cloud of Knives. If he has only 2 2nd level spells to prepare, he has movement, skill, or combat left out.

If, however, he had a power that allowed him to attack each round dealing 1d6+3 points of damage with each strike (as Cloud of Knives) this choice would be less limiting. His "at will" ability would replace his need to prepare / choose a per encounter or per day combat ability. He may choose to prepare the per encounter "Bite of the Wererat" to give him an extra combat option but he wouldn't be screwing himself in combat (which any attempt to use a melee or ranged weapon would count as...totally screwed) if he opted to prepare Burrow and Divine Insight.

So, considering that we know that wizards will have at will attack abilities, the need for "magic missile" will never prevent choosing "enlarge" or "scorching ray" for knock.


That said, I suspect that time, money, and space will all be limits on rituals.

I also think that knock is going the way of the dodo...though something similar that might allow a wizard to use Thevery with magic might replace it but it would not be automatic.

DC

 

[mach1.9pants]

dreamchaser has a really good point; when you have at will (which covers damaging spells? probably), per encounter and per day spells it is really hard to say what goes into rituals to stop you have to choose between blasting spells and utility ones. I really like the ritual, spell sivide in theory and I am very interested to see what they come up with.
On the cantrips being used at will, I hope so. I like the idea of a wizard being able to do little things like spicing his food or blowing awesome ship shaped smoke rings whenever he wants

 

[JohnSnow]

That's a really powerful ability. Allowing one skill to substitute for another is not something to be done lightly. Conditionally allowing it might work, but even then I'd probably put it two or more feats down the line.

I based it on similar abilities in Star Wars Saga Edition, such as Force Persuasion (sub UtF for Persuasion) or Force Intuition (sub UtF for Initiative skill). The former has a prerequisite, whereas the latter does not.

Alternatively, something like Force Haze allows you to make a Use the Force check against the target's will defense to effectively render yourself invisible. It costs a Force Point.

It's certainly not just a feat. More like a class power.

 

[VirgilCaine]

I don't want a mage unlocking stuff, otherwise we're back to mages eliminating the need for skills. The "rogue" should be the one sneaking around the combat to pop the shackles off the prisoner, not the mage. At least in my games, that's what I'd prefer to see.

Opportunity Cost

If your mage was doing the rogue's job exactly as many times as he needed to, then he wasn't able to do his job as a mage nearly as well.