Specific Item Creation Question

[dr_nukem]

A while back there was a discussion on the Frenzied Berserker prestige class. Specifically on the Frenzy ability that the class grants. This ability could potentially (ok, it will) lead to the PC attacking members of his party. In that discussion, various ways of attempting to keep this ability in check were suggested. Everything from meta-gaming to outright rule bending came up.

One suggestion was to create a specific magic item that granted a bonus to the PC's Will save vs Frenzy checks ONLY.

Normally, an item that grants a limited save bonus costs 250 gp * (bonus squared). An example is the Periapt of Proof against Poison, which grants a +4 bonus to fortitude saves vs poison and costs 4k gp.

Now, I was considering the creation of such an item for the FB PC. For specific checks against one ability (vs many poisons, etc) 250 seems like a high multiplier when compared to a single skill multiplier of 20 (see creating a skill enhancing item). However, if an item that granted a bonus to all (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
checks, then I could see the 250 being justified.

So, a few questions arise:
1) What type/subtype of a Will check is the Frenzy check?

2) Would a bonus to (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] Will checks grant a bonus to Frenzy checks?

3) What would you DM's out there charge for the creation of an item that grants ONLY a bonus to Frenzy checks?

{The whole (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] thought came from the spell Calm Emotions, which negates the effect of both Rage and Frenzy}

 

[Crothian]

A bonus to Frenzy checks is huge for a FB. I think the cost of 250 * bonus squared is about right.

 

[dr_nukem]

breaking the 100 post barrier!!!

Given that, any comments on the first 2 questions?

 

[dvvega]

The Frenzied Berserker's ability is voluntary. They can stop it at will with a Will Save (DC20) before it's duration expires. During the duration they will attack all foes first, then closest people until the duration is over.

That answers questions (1) and (2).

(1) & (2) It has no type ... it is a Will save. It is not Fear so a Paladin doesn't grant them a bonus, etc. It is a straight forward Will save. I understand the need for categorising to make a Limited Bonus save item.

(3) As a DM I personally WOULD NOT allow you to make a +x item vs Frenzy. Why? Because you're removing a weakness of a PrC. I know some people will disagree but you should have to get your bonuses the normal way (levels, cloak of resistance etc). Making an item just for your frenzy is a "cheap" way of ignoring the classes weakness. And you're trying to make it as cheap as possible, not spending money like 4000gp for a Headband of Wisdom (original Headband of Intellect, but using Owl's Wisdom).

Suggestions on your problem:
=====================
After the first time this happened, if I were any of your comrades I'd either kill you dead, or if you'd proven yourself to be our friend, try to avoid you after the last foe is down - i.e. RUN LIKE HELL (dropping tanglefoots in the way).

But they shouldn't have to. Once all enemies are down you should instantly make that Will save attempt every round from then on. They can keep moving away from you to stop you attacking of course. A double move from any of them will ensure you can't reach them and hit them except about 2 rounds later (i'm assuming they double move at 60 and your base is 40). If they just flat out run from you, you'll catch them but it will take a while.

Just buy a cloak of resistance (you'll get more benefits from it anyway). Or get the party cleric to use the Owl's Wisdom spell to boost your Wisdom for a couple of hours. Or use that spell as a basis to create an item that lets you cast it once per day, or perhaps increases your Wisdom score ala Headband of Intellect.

 

[dr_nukem]

So you're saying that you wouldn't allow a limited save item to be created to help the FB make their Will save? Thank you for your opinion.

Is the creation of said item possible? Would if follow the bonus squared * 250 rule?

A item that increases the FB's wisdom would help, adding 1, 2, or maybe 3 points to the check. The same applies to a cloak of resistance. Both of those items become quite expensive at higher bonuses.

Also, you're not removing the weakness of the PrC. You are lessening one of the weaknesses. There is still a good chance to fail the Will DC to both stop the frenzy and not go into one of you're hit. A 7th level character could easily meet the pre-reqs for FB and only have a Will save of +1 based on his class advancements (Bar 2, Fig 4, FB 1). A +10 item would still give a 40% chance of failure to stop the frenzy...

Plus, there are other weaknesses to the FB PrC besides the inability to stop the frenzy...like the -4 AC, the subdual damage, the exhaustion penalties for after the frenzy is over...but the attacking your allies IS the big one...

I agree the FB should start trying to make the Will save (DC 20) immediately upon defeating his opponents. Heck, if he's worried, he should be attempting to stop the frenzy BEFORE his last opponent drops.

The double move is an option, as long as the FB isn't able to charge directly at the other PCs. Also, don't forget that the FB get's an extra attack every round (similar to haste). So, even if the PC doublemoves away, the FB could charge, attack, then attack again with his free frenzied attack.

Slight tangent there. Any other comments on the save type or the specific magic item?

 

[dvvega]

If your DM allows you to create the item, then the 250gp*bonus^2 would apply. Since it's an item SOLELY for your Will check in frenzied situations.

Note that this will work for a Barbarian as well, or anyone under an emotion affecting spell that causes this behaviour.

Apart from that, I have a standing house rule IMC that disallows the "intentional bypassing" of Prestige Class flaws. I agree in your case it's just improving your chance of getting out of it, I misread the original post. But if you were to either automatically make that Will save or somehow remove it from being a chance of failure, then I would disallow it.

Thus if you had a +18 bonus to Will Saves (from items etc) it would be fine (still 1in 20 chance of failing) but if it went higher than that I would disallow it simply because it removes the "penalty" for frenzy.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

You are not "getting past" a deficiency using a specific item any more than you are getting past it using a traditional item.

My question is, why would you want an item, even at half the price, that gives a bonus on only ONE save, and it takes up a full slot, not half of one. I think it's a waste.

Maybe thats why I'd give it to you.

I would say that it would help you come down from a frenzy, and that alone, not other saves, even from spells that put you into a "rage" effect. One roll only. I would then say that it would be a wonderous item, cost one half that of a standard item that aplies to all save/abillity ups, and that one of the prerequisites is the abillity to frenzy. If you still think that is too specific, you could also put in a penalty clause, like the oath bow, more to justify the decreased cost. Say if you ever fail that check, it will not work again until you succeed on your own.

 

[dr_nukem]

A couple of reasons:

It's a lot cheaper, thus a higher bonus is possible. Sure, a +5 vs Will saves would be nice, but it would cost significantly more than a +5 vs Frenzy Will saves.

The PC has also mentioned clan lore regarding artifacts that helped reknown beserkers control their frenzy after a battle...so a bit of roleplaying here...

A compromise might be a specific item that grants Complusion [Mind Affecting] bonuses. I'm hoping for a few more opinions as to if this is a valid bonus vs Frenzy (dvvega doesn't seem to think it is). A magical device of this nature would be a combination of a bonus to "just Frenzy" and "all Will" saves.

I agree with your statement re "getting past". As this magical item will not guarantee success...it's really no different that a cloak of resistance, except it is targetted at a specifc TYPE or CLASS of save.

 

[dvvega]

As I mentioned in a previous post, I misread your post and thought you were trying to bypass the "bad effect".

I corrected myself and said that the 250*bonus^2 was a valid costing for the item.

The only issue you have is what kind of bonus they are looking for.

The barbarian's rage, and the frenzied berserker's frenzy are not labelled as any kind of magical effect. They're Exceptional abilities. So I find it hard to agree that the saving throw is related in any way with Compulsion effects.

That is why I also mentioned that I would make it an amulet solely versus Frenzy/Rage/anything similiar.

The saving throw has nothing to do with cancelling out a compulsion. They basically just lose control of themselves, they're not compelled to do it.

You could make the amulet/headband/whatever into a +X on self-control related things. This would include Concentration checks I would think.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

Yes it would be cheaper (I can't tell if that is a pro or a con in your post), but I would also say that anything past a +6 would be an epic bonus, just as if it were a stat booster. That would take care of the cost munchkin. For a little while at least.