Skills and "Taking 20"

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
So, it seems taking 20 is back in the game. I've noticed something strange about the DCs in the game with respect the the rule, however. It appears that the first level Rogue who has training in Lock Picking can, in 20 minutes pick a one of a kind lock masterpiece by taking 20.

Anyone with an 18 in their stat and training in something can accomplish a Demi-God level success in the skill by taking 20. Even at first level. Since it seems skills don't go up, it sounds like this would hold true at every level.

Meanwhile, although we don't know much about the leveling up process, it would appear that someone with a 16 Dex would never be able to pick that same lock.
 

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john112364

First Post
I didn't see anything about taking 20. Are you inferring or did I miss something?

As for the lock picking example, if I'm interpreting correctly, if your score is equal to the DC you automatically succeed. If not, you can roll and hope to get a d20 roll plus your modifier (not your score!) plus any bonuses to equal the DC. For instance if the lock has a DC of 18 a thief would need an 18 dex to auto succeed. Any thing less and you can still roll to equal the DC.
I'm not sure if you add your modifier to check for auto successes or not.

And of course I could be way off but that's my first impression. ;)

Anyone else want to take a shot at this?
 

Dragoslav

First Post
The rules suggest letting people automatically succeed if their ability score is the DC + 5.

As for "taking 20," the rules say that if a character can spend 20 times the amount of time working on something, then the DM can let them automatically succeed, unless the task is impossible... beyond that, it doesn't go into any specifics.
 


Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
As for "taking 20," the rules say that if a character can spend 20 times the amount of time working on something, then the DM can let them automatically succeed, unless the task is impossible... beyond that, it doesn't go into any specifics.
Exactly. The DC for a unique lock is 25+(the highest DC listed for locks). With an 18 Dex and +3 from training that makes DC 27 the highest you can roll. Which makes it not impossible. Therefore every rogue with an 18 Dex can open one of a kind locks in 20 minutes.

Similarly, any character with a 12 or higher strength can smash manacles to break out given 20 rounds.
 
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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Exactly. The DC for a unique lock is 25+(the highest DC listed for locks). With an 18 Dex and +3 from training that makes DC 27 the highest you can roll. Which makes it not impossible. Therefore every rogue with an 18 Dex can open one of a kind locks in 20 minutes.
More importantly, he can do it EVERY TIME.

Which is far too nice to the Rogue, and far too binary.

There has to be a chance of failure on easy locks, and a chance of success at tough ones; and in either case if you fail you fail - period - and Throg has to bring out the other lockpick. The one that looks remarkably like a sledgehammer.

Take 10 and take 20 were awful mechanics, IMO.

Lanefan
 

Getting the DCs right is an important part of the playtest; i wouldn't assume that they're perfect right out of the box.

WRT the specifics of picking a lock, I mostly don't mind the idea of a rogue being able to pick just about any lock with enough time, except for how it intersects with some other rules. Sure, there are realism/verisimilitude issues with the first level master lockpick, but with flatter math, some of that's inevitable. As i see it, hard to pick locks have a couple different functions in a game: (1) they're hard to pick fast, so if there is a concern about speed, rogue ability matters; current rules handle this fine; (2) they might mean that you have to break the lock (and maybe the potions inside the chest) because you can't pick it; the rules don't enable this; (3) they might mean you need to get some other door-opener (a magic key or whathaveyou); I think the rules are fine here, because just because mundane locks have a normal max DC doesn't mean that there can't be magically or whatever sealed doors; and (4) they might mean you trigger the trap on the door when you fail to pick it (something that D&D traditionally handles separately, but that's nicely incorporated as a hazard for lockpicking in Next terminology). I am concerned about how rogues' skill mastery interacts with the Hazard rules--if failing by 10 means hitting a hazard, then no rogue will ever hit a hazard if they are trained in the skill and capable of succeeding--they'll always be within 10 of the DC. That's a problem, because that means that the fancy lock with a big trap keyed to it is not dangerous to the rogue, and I agree that that's not a good result.

As for take 20 in general, there's a tension. Sometimes we want to know "can you succeed right now?" and sometimes we want to know "can you succeed at all?" If you're trying to futz the magic runes or disable the fire trap spewing burning oil in the middle of combat, it's entirely reasonable to say that you can roll each round, with failures meaning that you fail that round (but can try again) and success meaning you succeed that round. But then it seems bizarre that when the combat is over, you get one roll and if you fail, you can't succeed until circumstances are different. But if you let re-tries out of combat, then take 20 isn't really a special rule--it's just a way of representing "I keep rolling until I get a 20." In practice, I'm not sure that take 20 really creates all that many problems, and it does solve some.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
Anyone with an 18 in their stat and training in something can accomplish a Demi-God level success in the skill by taking 20. Even at first level. Since it seems skills don't go up, it sounds like this would hold true at every level.

This is quite a common criticism since Take20 in 3.0.

The common counter-argument is that if you ban Take20, the same character can accomplish the same "Demi-God level success" in approximately the same time just by rolling over and over, the only difference is that the process is more tedious for the players (which might indeed work as a deterrent, but doesn't really change a thing from the character's point of view).
 

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