D&D 5E Simple Dex Barbarian Hack, Please Evaluate

[Crimson Longinus]

So in the racial ASI thread (no more about that here) I said that it would be nice if there was better rule support for dexterity primary barbarians.

So how would this work:

You can add your rage damage bonus to Dex based attacks and use reckless attack with Dex based attacks.
BUT
Your rage bonus cannot be greater than your strength modifier.

This should make make Dex barbarians somewhat more viable, without encouraging to completely dumping strength. (I feel that barbarians should always be pretty fit, even if you would't go full Conan.)
I think this would allow slightly different arrangement of ability scores and would be particularly fitting for races such as elves and halflings.

Good, too good? Would it affect your opinion if the new UA feat that lets barbarians gain fighting styles such as two-weapon style was allowed alongside with this?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Ok, ok, not ASI stuff!

So, here is your idea:
1. Rage and Reckless attack can work with when making a weapon attack using DEX.
2. Rage bonus is limited by STR modifier

#1: I would add this does not work with ranged weapons. Thrown use STR, so they aren't an issue.
#1: You can already benefit on STR-based ability checks and saves gaining advantage even if your STR is lower.
#1: You can already benefit from damage resistance regardless of STR as well.

#2: if STR is "lower" like only +0 or +1 (common with DEX-builds), you really aren't getting any benefit from raging (or very little).

Am I missing anything? Because all I really see as being a benefit (please, correct me if I am wrong) is that Reckless Attack will work with DEX-based weapon attacks? That is pretty much finesse weapons really, which lends itself to the idea of the Barbarian/Rogue MC being able to always give themselves advantage to work with Sneak Attack.

EDIT: "DEXY" barbarians also already benefit from going faster (initiative) and having a better AC, as well as better DEX saves which barbarians aren't proficient in. DEX is already thought of as an uber-stat, this would end up being another feather in its cap...

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Are you saying Dex barbarians are already perfectly ok? Because I'm not sure that is really the case. I mean they're not utterly terrible, but I really don't think they can compete from optimisation perspective with Strength builds.

And yeah, if you dump Strength completely, this won't do much for you, and that is intentional. Kinda aiming to make things like Str 14, Dex 18 or something like that viable.

(And rage bonus already only applies to melee attacks.)

 

[jmartkdr2]

Ok, ok, not ASI stuff!

So, here is your idea:
1. Rage and Reckless attack can work with when making a weapon attack using DEX.
2. Rage bonus is limited by STR modifier

#1: I would add this does not work with ranged weapons. Thrown use STR, so they aren't an issue.
#1: You can already benefit on STR-based ability checks and saves gaining advantage even if your STR is lower.
#1: You can already benefit from damage resistance regardless of STR as well.

#2: if STR is "lower" like only +0 or +1 (common with DEX-builds), you really aren't getting any benefit from raging (or very little).

Am I missing anything? Because all I really see as being a benefit (please, correct me if I am wrong) is that Reckless Attack will work with DEX-based weapon attacks? That is pretty much finesse weapons really, which lends itself to the idea of the Barbarian/Rogue MC being able to always give themselves advantage to work with Sneak Attack.

EDIT: "DEXY" barbarians also already benefit from going faster (initiative) and having a better AC, as well as better DEX saves which barbarians aren't proficient in. DEX is already thought of as an uber-stat, this would end up being another feather in its cap...

This would be a big improvement for dex-based two-weapon barbarians. They'll still want some strength (a 14 or so) but won't have as much incentive to push that, because now they can push dexterity and constitution - allowing for high AC unarmored, lots of attacks due to TWF (all of which benefit from rage so they're actually getting more out of it), and the option of leaning heavy on dexterity skills like stealth. Making ambush barbarians an awesome option.

They'll probably get less out of advantage on strength checks (except maybe for escapes) but advantage on saving throws for an entire ability is a good thing for anyone.

The main issue I see with this would be how front-loaded the change is: the limitation won't really kick in until level 9 when rage damage goes to +3. This variant probably wouldn't be able to take advantage of that.

 

[NotAYakk]

Barbarians are written to need 3 stats.

Str for attacks (and saves)
Dex for AC and initiative (and saves)
Con for AC and HP (and saves)

Now, this change would reduce Barbarians to a 2-stat build. The limit on rage damage bonus is a minor restriction; reckless attack accuracy/crits and rage soak are 200% more important than a few extra points per hit.

Normally I'd argue that this is a serious power up. But barbarians are effective because of synergy with GWF -- reckless attack + GWM is simply insanely good. And a dex-based barbarian has no access to that.

So you'll end up significantly weaker than your str-based cousin barbarians.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

This would be a big improvement for dex-based two-weapon barbarians. They'll still want some strength (a 14 or so) but won't have as much incentive to push that, because now they can push dexterity and constitution - allowing for high AC unarmored, lots of attacks due to TWF (all of which benefit from rage so they're actually getting more out of it), and the option of leaning heavy on dexterity skills like stealth. Making ambush barbarians an awesome option.

They'll probably get less out of advantage on strength checks (except maybe for escapes) but advantage on saving throws for an entire ability is a good thing for anyone.

Yeah, that is exactly the sort of build this is meant to support. But it isn't too good right? It doesn't overshadow strength builds?

The main issue I see with this would be how front-loaded the change is: the limitation won't really kick in until level 9 when rage damage goes to +3. This variant probably wouldn't be able to take advantage of that.

Yeah, I know, that is a valid concern.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Barbarians are written to need 3 stats.

Str for attacks (and saves)
Dex for AC and initiative (and saves)
Con for AC and HP (and saves)

Now, this change would reduce Barbarians to a 2-stat build. The limit on rage damage bonus is a minor restriction; reckless attack accuracy/crits and rage soak are 200% more important than a few extra points per hit.

Normally I'd argue that this is a serious power up. But barbarians are effective because of synergy with GWF -- reckless attack + GWM is simply insanely good. And a dex-based barbarian has no access to that.

So you'll end up significantly weaker than your str-based cousin barbarians.

Right. So you'd say that there at least is no worry of it being overpowered?

 

[The Crimson Binome]

The big objection to Dex-based barbarians is mostly thematic, rather than balance-derived. The rules exist, as they are, primarily to ensure that you don't end up with a bunch of halfling barbarians.

If you want to encourage Dex-based barbarians, and it's viable for you to introduce a house rule (because you're the DM, or the DM wants to help you on this), then you can just say that the rage bonus and reckless attack both apply to finesse weapons. There's no reason to go overboard with extra rules. It isn't going to impact game balance enough to worry about.

 

[Horwath]

1st rule of house rules; if it does not buff up full casters it is not overpowered.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The big objection to Dex-based barbarians is mostly thematic, rather than balance-derived. The rules exist, as they are, primarily to ensure that you don't end up with a bunch of halfling barbarians.

If you want to encourage Dex-based barbarians, and it's viable for you to introduce a house rule (because you're the DM, or the DM wants to help you on this), then you can just say that the rage bonus and reckless attack both apply to finesse weapons. There's no reason to go overboard with extra rules. It isn't going to impact game balance enough to worry about.

The strength limiting the rage bonus here also partly thematic. Because I don't actually want some strength 8 barbarians, I want ones that can focus on dexterity but do not dump their strength completely. You know, Imagine a lean and fit elf who is super agile and fast and still decently strong.