Should mods to hit be dropped from ability scores?

[Oni]

I was just thinking about this, that one of the biggest incentives to min/max is the accuracy bonus/saving throw DC mods that comes from having high ability scores. I'm really happy that they are flattening the math in the upcoming 5e, but I'm concerned that in doing so each plus to hit is going to become even more important creating an even greater incentive to min/max scores. I'm thinking perhaps to hit and spell dc mods should be dropped from the list of things affected by ability scores. Opinions?

 

[variant]

What's wrong with min/maxing?

 

[deadwor1d]

I was just thinking about this, that one of the biggest incentives to min/max is the accuracy bonus/saving throw DC mods that comes from having high ability scores. I'm really happy that they are flattening the math in the upcoming 5e, but I'm concerned that in doing so each plus to hit is going to become even more important creating an even greater incentive to min/max scores. I'm thinking perhaps to hit and spell dc mods should be dropped from the list of things affected by ability scores. Opinions?

My personal view is I agree with the reasoning behind your idea. Mods to hit will become very important. However, no matter what you do to a system, there will always be min-maxing going on. There is a subset of players (I couldn't even begin to tell you how large it is) that derives a lot of enjoyment out of optimizing their PCs in every way they can. And good for them, by the way. They are enjoying the game in their own way--this is not a slam.

I'd vote to keep those modifiers in place as they are because it just makes sense to me that they exist in the first place. I don't believe those modifiers will be so destructive as to warrant removal.

 

[BobTheNob]

What's wrong with min/maxing?

Its fine for some games, but Im so glad they are stomping back into its box for 5e. Its like a breath of fresh air that they are moving toward a flatter system. If it upsets you and you LIKE min/max'ing well...sorry.

To the OP, yes. I have often thought about removing toHit from ability scores, but the thing is that now stats are more the sign of what your character can do more than ever before. I dont think there is room to remove them.

For now, Im happy to watch and see how it pans out.

 

[ren1999]

No. In fact, how are we going to keep combat rounds down if it is harder to hit opponents and hit dice goes up but damage dice is variable?

 

[Fifth Element]

No. In fact, how are we going to keep combat rounds down if it is harder to hit opponents and hit dice goes up but damage dice is variable?

Um...lower AC a bit? The range of attack bonuses could be narrowed even if the average "hit percentage" remained the same.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

What's wrong with min/maxing?

Nothing for those who enjoy that style of game; most players enjoy playing effective characters. However, when the game almost assumes that you have your character's "primary" stat maxed out to the limit, it has gone a big step too far. It produces cookie-cutter and over-focused characters who are all about a single shtick. This can make the character very boring to play when you are talking about the three pillars of play, and the characters are all produced to dance around just one of those pillars. I would prefer a focus on having more rounded characters dancing around all three pillars.

I think the trick is making scores of 12 or greater more useful with diminishing returns. I have suggested before that each ability with a score of 13plus should get the character access to an "Ability Feat" that allows them to specialise in some way with that particular ability. Make having average or slightly above average more desirable leaving that big 18 as special rather than required. A low level character with a strength of 14 should be able to accomplish almost as much as the character with a strength of 18. A 14 should give you access to a whole bunch of things (be they feat related or whatever), and where an 18 becomes the gravy on top.

What further things are required I really don't know, particularly in the 5e paradigm where much of the design does not seem to be following this approach.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[keterys]

I'd love to see hit style mechanics divorced from ability scores, since they're the primary incentive to maximize a single score over all others.

Obviously, you wouldn't just reduce the net chance to hit - whether that's by including a base bonus (ex: +5), higher proficiency, reducing AC, or whatever.

 

[Campbell]

I'm not sure divorcing attack bonus from ability scores would have the effect some people assume. It removes one incentive, but its not like fighters would suddenly start favoring wisdom or charisma over strength. Strength still provides a benefit that helps him do his job as a fighter - mainly killing monsters. We might start seeing more high constitution builds, but that just supplants one form of min-maxing for another. I'm also not sure we should be discouraging fighters from having a high strength especially if rolling for ability scores is the primary method. Fighters should be strong.

That being said we should do something about some ability scores having no tangible benefits for some classes - especially charisma and intelligence. For instance you could have initiative modified by both intelligence and dexterity or an average of their bonuses. Not too sure about what do with charisma tho.

 

[keterys]

They could go crazy and show that hit points really are partially luck, and have Charisma affect hit points (no, it won't happen)

And a fighter who doesn't get attack from Str (but still gets damage, carrying capacity, "athletics", some interaction with heavy armor, etc)... will probably still have some Str, though it lets Con and Dex and Wis and... well, it lets everything _contend_, so you're not giving up quite as much. Sure, Caramon can deal a little more damage than Sturm who is better in civilized company and deals more damage than D'artagnan who goes first and deals more capably with a tossing ship deck, etc.