D&D 5E Shadowdark casting in standard 5E

[Distracted DM]

I’m considering using a system like this but only for cantrips.

Oh wow, that's a solid idea- separate from this, I'd been just thinking of having limited cantrip slots again :'D
Could be as simple as "whenever you cast the cantrip, roll a d20... or d12? on a 1, you need a long rest til you can cast it again."

 

[el-remmen]

Oh wow, that's a solid idea- separate from this, I'd been just thinking of having limited cantrip slots again :'D
Could be as simple as "whenever you cast the cantrip, roll a d20... or d12? on a 1, you need a long rest til you can cast it again."

My current plan is for the first time to be "free" but a check is rolled every time after the first. Maybe something like a saving throw based on your casting ability score against DC ??.

I was considering have the check get harder each time you cast a particular cantrip more than once - but scrapped that idea b/c having to keep track of uses felt annoying.

 

[Reynard]

What is the motivation to restrict cantrips?

 

[TwoSix]

Oh wow, that's a solid idea- separate from this, I'd been just thinking of having limited cantrip slots again :'D
Could be as simple as "whenever you cast the cantrip, roll a d20... or d12? on a 1, you need a long rest til you can cast it again."

Beyond the Wall does this, where all cantrips require skill checks, and failing the check blocks the character's use of magic for the rest of the day.

 

[Quickleaf]

Rim

Wizards could just have the ability to prepare a smaller number of spells/day out of their books, but having access to whatever they record- whereas sorcerers would have a slightly larger number of spells that they know.

One could even adopt a spell table like 13A, where as you gain access to higher level spells you lose the lower ones- and the caster could know # spells/level. Makes even more sense with 5e's ability to upcast spells.

I'm starting to think you could even use existing tables from 5e or another edition as a guideline for how many spells you know of each level.

Spoiler: For reference this is the 13A wizard table:

View attachment 364297

The 13th Age approach applied to RAW 5e creates some narrative dissonance - Suddenly they’re not able to cast Detect Magic anymore?

So while there are ways to do Roll-to-Cast or reduced number of spells in your kit in 5e, the 13th Age “lose lower spell levels” doesn’t translate to 5e.

 

[Quickleaf]

What is the motivation to restrict cantrips?

So, speaking about Beyond the Wall - where the roll-to-cast cantrips comes from - you need to see the context…

Cantrips in BtW are potent - they include things that, to borrow some 5e terms resemble Speak with Animals, Bless, Bane, Silent Image, Plant Growth, seeing & commanding spirits, etc. Most of them have more narrative weight & impact than 5e cantrips.

BtW divides magic into Cantrips (roll-to-cast and lose access to that cantrip if fail), Spells (you can cast a #=level each day), and Rituals (which are where the “at-will” magic happens but it’s longer casting, more requirements).

So within that framework, the roll-to-cast cantrips make a lot of sense.

In 5e RAW limiting cantrips is less a matter of systems/framework integration and more personal tastes. I haven’t get the need to limit them in 5e, but I get why aesthetically folks would be opposed to unlimited cantrips.

 

[TwoSix]

So, speaking about Beyond the Wall - where the roll-to-cast cantrips comes from - you need to see the context…

Cantrips in BtW are potent - they include things that, to borrow some 5e terms resemble Speak with Animals, Bless, Bane, Silent Image, Plant Growth, seeing & commanding spirits, etc. Most of them have more narrative weight & impact than 5e cantrips.

BtW divides magic into Cantrips (roll-to-cast and lose access to that cantrip if fail), Spells (you can cast a #=level each day), and Rituals (which are where the “at-will” magic happens but it’s longer casting, more requirements).

So within that framework, the roll-to-cast cantrips make a lot of sense.

In 5e RAW limiting cantrips is less a matter of systems/framework integration and more personal tastes. I haven’t get the need to limit them in 5e, but I get why aesthetically folks would be opposed to unlimited cantrips.

Beyond the Wall is still my favorite implementation of "D&D-like magic". The magic is simultaneously simple, character-defining, and yet legitimately useful. And rituals are pretty much "story hook in a box", while I absolutely love.

 

[Distracted DM]

Rim

The 13th Age approach applied to RAW 5e creates some narrative dissonance - Suddenly they’re not able to cast Detect Magic anymore?

So while there are ways to do Roll-to-Cast or reduced number of spells in your kit in 5e, the 13th Age “lose lower spell levels” doesn’t translate to 5e.

That's why I said 5e's upcasting was useful. You can still cast detect magic!
But I wouldn't recommend doing a 1:1 port without any consideration

 

[Cruentus]

Beyond the Wall does this, where all cantrips require skill checks, and failing the check blocks the character's use of magic for the rest of the day.

Taking this a step further, in Beyond, Cantrips require a skill roll to cast, and, if failed, the player chooses either 1) no more magic for the rest of the day, or 2) the Cantrip misfires (usually negatively affecting the caster) but they can continue to cast Cantrips. Spells, by contrast, are your typical DnD type spells, but take an hour a level to cast, and you can only cast one spell per character level, but they always work. Its a very fun system and enjoyed at my table.

I think the choice of the effect of the failure is an interesting choice-point.

I tried to blend Shadowdark/DCC/Beyond the Wall style mechanics into my OSE game, and found it was too much work for the result. So I instead would run those systems if I wanted that variant spell system, as they were effectively close to OSE anyway. I stuck with OSE/BX (Vancian) casting for my OSE games.

 

[ezo]

I’m considering using a system like this but only for cantrips.

We've used a simple recharge mechanic for cantrips, akin to breath weapons.

Your recharge is your spellcasting ability modifier or less on a d6.

We're also re-tooling spellcasting to use hit points and require a spellcasting check to successfully cast for our own game.