Shadow evocation and how to figure out spell DC

[albatrossen]

Sorry if this has been a Thread before, but I could´nt find it.
I´m playing a beguiler and I look forward to get advanced learning at some point, and especially to get a hold on Shadow evocation and shadow conjuration. BUT when I read the spell there is one thing I can´t figure out.
I play a Gnome and as everyone knows he casts illusions with higher DC´s +1, Shadow conjuration and shadow evocation are illusion spells! I understand that, when a lightningbolt is hitting its target it makes a will save to disbelieve the illusion. But my question is: what about the reflex save for half damage, is that related to the Illusion DC or the DC without illusion bonuses?
It is just that it all seems to be illusion related, but I´m not sure!
Come on all you who has spend your skillpoints on arcane knowledge and spellcraft
Thanks

 

[MarkB]

I could see that being ruled in either direction. From a strict rules viewpoint it skews more towards the higher DC - it's an illusion spell, and he gets to enhance the DCs of illusion spells.

From the viewpoint of what's actually happening in-game, I'd tend towards not giving the bonus. The caster is using illusion to create this shadow spell, and gaining a bonus to the Will save to make it more 'real', but its actual spell-effect is still an evocation for all practical purposes, and being better at illusions doesn't help there.

Personally, I'd go with the latter ruling, but I don't consider it to be a clear-cut choice.

 

[albatrossen]

Thanks Mark.
But how will you explain the fact that the spell it pretends to be (a 3rd level lightningball) is a 5th level illusion and is damaging as one? Id say that the reflex-save is more difficult as it is based on a perfected illusion? but then again, Im also playing the gnome with the higher DC on illusions!

 

[Moorcrys]

It seems clear to me, it's an illusion. The 'balancing' factor is that it grants the target two saving throws to mitigate the effects of the spell. The spell type doesn't change into an evocation or conjuration after the target fails their saving throw to believe it - it remains an illusion. The caster shouldn't be penalized because the target failed their saving throw.

 

[MarkB]

Thanks Mark.
But how will you explain the fact that the spell it pretends to be (a 3rd level lightningball) is a 5th level illusion and is damaging as one? Id say that the reflex-save is more difficult as it is based on a perfected illusion? but then again, Im also playing the gnome with the higher DC on illusions!

The way I envision it is that the caster is using his Illusionism to summon up some Shadow energy, and then he's doing some Evocation with that energy.

But as I said, it could go either way. It's certainly not worth arguing about.

 

[Dandu]

"Regardless of the result of the save to disbelieve, an affected creature is also allowed any save (or spell resistance) that the spell being simulated allows, but the save DC is set according to shadow evocation’s level (5th) rather than the spell’s normal level."

 

[albatrossen]

Thanks to both of you. Now i have stuff to bring to our GM When I get that far

 

[Starfox]

"Regardless of the result of the save to disbelieve, an affected creature is also allowed any save (or spell resistance) that the spell being simulated allows, but the save DC is set according to shadow evocation’s level (5th) rather than the spell’s normal level."

If you use Shadow Evocation's level, I'd also say you use it's school modifiers. If nothing else for simplicity. For the DM to have to roll 2 saving throws with different bonuses is bad enough, having to count different save DCs would mean the spell is almost twice as cumbersome to use as a normal spell. And this not like these spells are overpowered - they give flexibility, but they pay for it twice - by having 2 saving throws AND by only emulating spells a level lower than themselves.

 

[albatrossen]

If you use Shadow Evocation's level, I'd also say you use it's school modifiers. If nothing else for simplicity. For the DM to have to roll 2 saving throws with different bonuses is bad enough, having to count different save DCs would mean the spell is almost twice as cumbersome to use as a normal spell. And this not like these spells are overpowered - they give flexibility, but they pay for it twice - by having 2 saving throws AND by only emulating spells a level lower than themselves.

That is a good point, it will take double the amount of gametime, the least, to play it with those different aspects!