D&D 5E Scimitar of speed and Sword of Dancing RAW question

[DEFCON 1]

In the playtest, both the Warpriest and the Monk dropped the requirements of making an attack action.

They are both intentionally only bonus actions.

True dat. So it's quite possible the 5E24 DMG might re-write the Scimitar of Speed rules to match. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I agree, you really can't deny that it is faster.

It is a bit quirky in the sense that it offers a benefit very similar to two-weapon fighting - an additional attack as a bonus action. But it does so by 1) obviating the need to make an attack action as the primary action, and 2) allowing that extra action to be taken even if the scimitar is the primary (or only) weapon being wielded. Both of these are fairly nice benefits.

Actually, based upon my post above, I can deny it.

Not saying you are wrong, but rather both sides can be right depending on how one looks at it.

 

[mellored]

True dat. So it's quite possible the 5E24 DMG might re-write the Scimitar of Speed rules to match. We'll have to wait and see.

It's already written to match.
Including the new Nick feature.

 

[Charlaquin]

Not necessarily, it depends on how one looks at it. You can't say a Bonus action is definitively a "faster" action than a standard Action, because after all... if a Bonus action was faster by definition, a Rogue that used their Bonus action to Dash should move further than a Rogue that used its Action to Dash. If the Bonus action was faster, you would move further in the same amount of time. But the rogue moves 30' regardless of which action they use. So in terms of speed, one can say that neither action (the regular or the Bonus) is any faster than the other. Instead, it's more like the character themself can act faster by doing two things at once in the same 6 second period, but both activities could take the same amount of time to complete as they would if they only did one.

But a rogue can move 90’ in a turn, if they dash with their action and their bonus action. Or they can move 60’ and attack once in a turn, where others can only move 30’ and attack or 60’ and not attack. Or move 30’, attack, and try to hide, or move 60’ cautiously enough not to provoke an opportunity attack. Basically any combination of action and cunning action results in the rogue traveling further in 6 seconds than another character could while performing the same activity. The natural interpretation (IMO) is that the rogue can simply run faster than everyone else.

 

[DEFCON 1]

But a rogue can move 90’ in a turn, if they dash with their action and their bonus action. Or they can move 60’ and attack once in a turn, where others can only move 30’ and attack or 60’ and not attack. Or move 30’, attack, and try to hide, or move 60’ cautiously enough not to provoke an opportunity attack. Basically any combination of action and cunning action results in the rogue traveling further in 6 seconds than another character could while performing the same activity. The natural interpretation (IMO) is that the rogue can simply run faster than everyone else.

Yes, the Rogue on the whole can run faster than another character... but that doesn't necessarily follow that the individual segments of the Rogue's turn have one segment moving faster than the others, does it? Look at it this way... a character's 6-second turn can be divided up a couple different ways:

1) The two or three things a character does in their turn all occur simultaneously over those 6-seconds. So for instance one PC can do a move and an Action at the same time with both taking 6 seconds to complete... while another PC can do a move, an Action and a Bonus action at the same time with all three taking 6-seconds to complete. Which then means the latter character might be faster or better at "multitasking" as it were-- being able to do three tasks instead of two in a similar amount of time, but those three acts taken are all still equal in duration with one not being faster than the others.

2) The 6-seconds of a character's turn gets divided up into segments and each of the move/Action/Bonus action takes up a certain amount of segments within those 6-seconds. So one character might take 1 second out of their turn to move and 5 seconds out of their turn to take the Attack action... while another character would take 1 second out of their turn to move, 3 seconds out of their turn to take the Attack action, and 2 seconds out of their turn to make a Bonus action attack. In this case of how we interpret things... yes, the Bonus action attack indeed was "faster" than the Attack action.

But that only causes several questions/problems for us. First... the latter character's Attack action has ALSO gotten faster just because they took a second attack with their Bonus action-- it went from 5 seconds down to 3. Which begs the question then how do we know that the Attack action only drops 2 seconds down to 3 seconds total? Who is to say that the original 5-second Attack action didn't drop to 2 seconds long, while the Bonus action attack taking up 3? Which means the Action was now faster than the Bonus. Or what if in truth in the original scenario the move takes 3 seconds to complete and the Action takes 3 seconds to complete... but when you throw in a Bonus action, all three now drop to 2 seconds long each? At this point, the Action and the Bonus action take the same amount of time and the Bonus isn't faster.

We don't know. The game doesn't define it. So there no definitive rule that tells us that a Bonus action absolutely takes less time to complete than a regular Action. We can certainly interpret it to be faster if we want, certainly... but even just above there are other ways to interpret things as the move, Action and Bonus action all taking equal time-- either because they all take 6-seconds and are done simultaneously, or they each take a 2 second segment of the full 6-second turn to complete. Who's to say who is right?

But this is all just splitting the finest of hairs and has no real matter or care in the grand scheme of things. At the end of the day, it's all going to come down to how the OP's DM chooses to interpret the rules themself.

 

[James Gasik]

But the Sorcerer's ability to turn a 1 action spell into a bonus action spell is called Quicken Spell, so...

 

[Clint_L]

But the Sorcerer's ability to turn a 1 action spell into a bonus action spell is called Quicken Spell, so...

Yeah, I think it's certainly implied that bonus actions are like "fast actions." But it's left kind of open to context and interpretation so...YVMV. I'm not losing too much sleep over it.

I love the idea of having the scimitar simply give the haste effect, though it might be too powerful? I'd like to try it and see. I'm thinking about how that would impact my monk, and it's scary.

 

[mellored]

I love the idea of having the scimitar simply give the haste effect, though it might be too powerful? I'd like to try it and see. I'm thinking about how that would impact my monk, and it's scary.

Maybe if it was Legendary, or once per short rest.

 

[DEFCON 1]

But the Sorcerer's ability to turn a 1 action spell into a bonus action spell is called Quicken Spell, so...

Believe it or not... not all the names given to the mechanics in the game are completely correct with how they end up playing.

 

[MarkB]

If you hold it in your hand without swinging it, it doesn't matter how fast it can move, it's no help.

If you make an attack with it as a bonus action, then you are swinging it - and doing it so fast that it doesn't require a whole action to do so.