Ressurection and Drama "Don't worry, we'll rez you after this"

[fuzzlewump]

Characters of unthinkably high level (defined, according to Gygax, as sixth level or higher should be rare, in my opinion.

I agree, which is why looking back at p.139 of the DMG 3.5 bugs me. There's this "Highest Level Locals" table that you roll on to see what the highest level people are in the community. Even in a small town you have a pretty good shot at getting some level 7's and 8's of PC classes.

 

[Alzrius]

I agree, which is why looking back at p.139 of the DMG 3.5 bugs me. There's this "Highest Level Locals" table that you roll on to see what the highest level people are in the community. Even in a small town you have a pretty good shot at getting some level 7's and 8's of PC classes.

Actually, I did a blog post on this, and presuming average die rolls across the board, you'll get roughly the following from a small town of 1,500 people (a rough average of the 901-2,000 that make up a "small town"):

A small town of fifteen hundred people has a spellcasting populace of one 4th-level, two 2nd-level, and four 1st-level clerics; one 3rd-level and two 1st-level druids; one 2nd-level and two 1st-level sorcerers; one 3rd-level and two 1st-level wizards; one 4th-level, two 2nd-level, and four 1st-level bards; and one 3rd-level and seven 1st-level adepts. This total of thirty-one spellcasters is almost double what could be found in a village, but again the overall percentage is less, this time being only about 2.07%. However, the other trend continues as well, in that for the first time, 2nd-level arcane spells are available (via the 3rd-level wizard and 4th-level bard). The remaining population is as follows: one 5th-level, two 2nd-level, and four 1st-level fighters; one 4th-level, two 2nd-level, and four 1st-level rogues; one 3rd-level and two 1st-level monks; one 2nd-level and two 1st-level barbarians; one 2nd-level and two 1st-level rangers; one 1st-level paladin; one 2nd-level and seven 1st-level aristocrats; one 8th-level, two 4th-level, four 2nd-level, and forty-three 1st-level experts; one 5th-level, two 2nd-level, and seventy-two 1st-level warriors; and one 10th-level, two 5th-level, four 2nd-level, and one thousand three hundred-five 1st-level commoners.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

On the other hand, I've been reading a bit of transhumanist fiction, and I'm about to run a sci-fi mini campaign where if you die, your buddies just need to recover your stack (a back up of your consciousness, surgically implanted in everyone's neck bones). Then they can order a clone of you, or just buy a body that used to belong to someone who was sentenced to death (deletion of the mind), and resleeve you in a new body.

I wouldn't do it in fantasy, but it's fascinating how it influences society in a sci-fi setting.

I see you got ahold of 'Altered Carbon'...
Excellent book.. really good writing and an awesome conceit.

On topic, IMC you can get Rez'd at a decently leveled temple or by a PC. You can't, however, just trade in GP for a Rez... the temple preist {or diety} will require a quest in payment. Something that furthers the dieties presence in the area. So its not so much an accountant deal as it is a great plot hook.

I also use the 'death shroud' house rule, where raised beings are slightly off in thier aura/smell/something. They just dont 'feel' right. Each raising/rez increases this sense and critters start negatively reacting, etc..


I would like to refind a decent town population generator for 4e.. including gp limits and NPC levels. It would be really cool if it included the results for the underworld to.. but I may be asking too much

 

[Storm Raven]

That depends on perspective. The RICH may be able to afford to be raised. Adventurers can afford to be raised. The poor, who are the VAST majority of any given (published) worlds population never get resurrected.

So for 99% of the population, it is still a miracle. Its only diminished for the rich elite.

Imagine the cries of social injustice that would engender. It would probably make selling indulgences seem like taking too many pennies from the "give one, take one" cup.

 

[t_catt11]

I handle resurrections like this in my world of Audalis:

First off, only greater deities can ressurect the dead. Lesser deities do not have this ability. If they wish to offer this boon to one of their followers, they must seek out their patron to do it for them.

That being said, raisiing the dead requires a lot of personal effort, even for a greater deity, and leaves the deity wearied for a time. Due to this fact, resurrection is typically reserved exclusively for heroes of the highest order, or for those who have a special destiny.

Of course, you should understand that magic is somewhat rare in my world, anyway - divine magic is viewed as miraculous by the common people.

 

[Saracenus]

Well to make up for the OP's dissatisfaction with the trivial nature of raising the dead in the video game, here is a link to the classic TOEE2 story hour by Contact. Character death rates in this adventure were pretty brutal (but in a funny way). Enjoy:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/story-...-hour-contacts-temple-elemental-evil-2-a.html

"It should have been you Fräs!"

 

[Janx]

I've seen a lot of great ideas for alternate "costs" of ressurection. Many which make greta plot hooks or complications to the story. That's a good thing, as the point of the story is for the hero to overcome adversity. Unless it's one of those "how the hero failed and died" stories...

I suspect some of us may have a cultural aversion to resurrection. There's a whole religion based on the idea that it was a pretty rare event.

I suspect there's also a logistics problem. Our real world fiction is tied to the idea that death is mostly permanent, unless it advances the plot. In D&D land, there's evidence that it may be "much easier" to get rezzed, so much so that it changes the balance of telling those kind of stories. If it is too easy, nobody who matters has to stay dead.

I suspect that there's a split mentality that death is a punishment for the player's choices which is opposing the idea of plot immunity, where if the story is about the PC and he dies permanently, you've just hosed an entire plot line. Plus it's not any fun, and if the party had retreated 1 round earlier, you'd still be alive.

Basically, what's the difference in dying and getting rezzed, versus nearly dying and getting healed up?

There are plenty of GOOD games being run that have important storylines revolving around characters, such that if one died, the game can crash and not make sense anymore. That doesn't make them a bad game, it's a group preference and risk.

There are plenty of GOOD games being run that every session is a test of the player's wits, where failure means end of character and starting over. The player is motivated to be very careful.

The answer lies in the middle, not the extreme. I'd be inclined to house rule the RaiseDead/Ressurection spells so they have a consequence that is interesting. Perhaps the effect varies by deity, but one that makes it less likely for an NPC to be raised, thus putting "normality" back into the setting.

The PCs being more resourceful, will still be inclined to use it, if they wish to pay the consequences. Basically make the consequence high enough that a PC might pay it, but an NPC (lacking player driven motivation) would probably not. In short, make it easy for the GM/Players to justify using it, or not using it as the story needs.

My PCs have rarely died. One was half-orc barbarian and his henchman minotaur fighter. The PC had died, and the henchman (with the party) had traveled to the one cleric in the region who could rez him). They tracked him down to a pinned down position on the battlefield. Then the enemy attacked. My PC got raised in the same round that his henchman was killed while defending him. Then I made the cleric raise the henchman in the next round. Rules aside, that's a bit absurd. It lacked dignity.

But on the other hand, I liked that pair. They kicked butt. Easy to drive. We killed a lot of stuff. I probably didn't have plot immunity, as the only destiny I had was the to hit a lot and do mega-damage. You'd be surprised how far you can rise in orc society with the skill of rolling criticals. It would have sucked to start over. I chose fun over verisimilitude. And if coming back had a price, I'd have paid it, because a PC can beat darn near anything the DM dishes out, even death. Or not.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I've seen a lot of great ideas for alternate "costs" of ressurection. Many which make greta plot hooks or complications to the story. That's a good thing, as the point of the story is for the hero to overcome adversity. Unless it's one of those "how the hero failed and died" stories...

Well, it's not a story, any more than it is Guild Wars (for example) - the type of story that comes out of the playing, if there is one, might well be 'how the hero(es) failed and died', sure. Or anything else. It ain't written, and that's a large part of the beauty of RPGs.

 

[Janx]

Well, it's not a story, any more than it is Guild Wars (for example) - the type of story that comes out of the playing, if there is one, might well be 'how the hero(es) failed and died', sure. Or anything else. It ain't written, and that's a large part of the beauty of RPGs.

That in effect makes it a story. It's an oral story, told at least once (surely you've sat through a few other PC stories).

The DM chooses what happens next, the players choose how the PCs handle it and move to the next scene. Once the game is done, you've just told a story, though during the game play, that may not be obvious.

Regardless of how the GM runs the game, what happens at the table is effectively a story. Since it is a story about you, and you like things about you, you will find it more interesting than it may really be. But it is a story nonetheless.

Anytime things are going easy for the players, or they make a mistake, the GM brings in a complication. This is standard storytelling methodology.

This is also the heart of the debate of resurrection and death. It affects the way we think of stories working, which affects the challenges and obstacle the hero faces.

If PCs have full plot immunity, or if rez is too common, then death has no meaning, and there's little risk (fear of death) to temper people's actions. The death of any NPC has little meaning, because if he "matters", he can be brought back. And the PCs know they will eventually beat the villain, just as I know I will ultimately finish Marvel Ultimate Alliance. I can't lose, because I can always reload.

This thread and others have talked about the wonkyness that can happen in a game world if you actually apply the common availability of ressurection. Conversly, most fiction doesn't even acknowledge this, because it hurts our verisimilitude and makes it harder to present obstacles and threats.

The core then, is to make it less likely to happen for NPCs, and accept it may be used by PCs. Smooth things out, so your stories make sense. Or fully embrace it, and get a radically different game world from our own. That could be fun, too.

 

[Janx]

I agree, which is why looking back at p.139 of the DMG 3.5 bugs me. There's this "Highest Level Locals" table that you roll on to see what the highest level people are in the community. Even in a small town you have a pretty good shot at getting some level 7's and 8's of PC classes.

So?

Even older D&D had the 10% rule (or 1%, whatever), where that % defined how many were 1st level, and a % of that was the next, and so on.

Per, the thread on how do you know the NPCs are higher level? my point is that without those dudes, the PCs will own that town by 3rd level. Higher level NPCs keep the PCs in line. Barring the nicest PCs who wouldn't dream of taking over anything simply because they can.

There's an old black-belt story, the guy is in an alley when he gets cornered by some thugs. He knows he can't beat them all, so he says, "I know you guys are going to win, but I also know I can kill at least one of you. I'm going to kill YOU, before I go down." and he points to one of the thugs.

That thug looks worried and whimpers "Why me?"

He replies, "Because I can and your the smallest." That thug takes off, so the black belt says, "Fine, I'll kill you instead." This goes on until there's only 3 thugs left. The martial artist says, "Well now it's a fair fight, I'll kill you guys in this order..." And before long, he had no foes to fight.

the lesson being, with the threat of death (ironic in a thread about how easy Rez is), a reasonable gang of low levels is no challenge for a high level. This is what reigns in PCs and even enemy NPCs (like orc Chieftains).