Reach for the Sky! This is a hold up...

[Uller]

Alright...I know this is probably not a real good idea for most situations in most combat centric D&D games....but I'm just wondering.

I recently watched the move Tombstone and one pivotal scene really struck me as impossible in D&D: The scene where the main villian kills the town Marshal and the Erp brothers end up in a stand off with the Cowboy gang over their now unconscious leader.

Let's convert it to a medieval fantasy D&D setting...

So the main villian(Rogue5/Fighter3...I can't remember his name) is out in the street, high on opium and causing a disturbance. Maybe he is threatening citizens with his two short swords. So the town constable(Warrior3) reluctantly confronts him and tells him to hand over his weapons. The constable has the jump on him so in order to get a sneak attack, the villian bluffs the constable into believing he's going to hand over his weapons. At the last moment, he stabs the constable for 4d6 damage, killing him.

At that moment, Wyatt Erp(Rogue3/Ranger3/Fighter4) rushes out and somehow incapacitates the villian with subdual damage with one hit to the back of the head. There is no way in D&D to do this that I know of with out a drawn out fight.

Then the mob comes out and the stand off occurs. Ike(Rogue2/Fighter2) attempts to intimidate Wyatt to "Cut 'em loose, law dog, or I swear to God that we'll tear you apart," but fails. As Ike steps forward, Wyatt puts his sword to Ike's throat and says "You can probably take me in a rush, but I promise you, you'll die first." At this point, Wyatt could simply kill Ike at any points he chooses. No problem. Again, can't really be done in D&D.

If this scene were to be played out in D&D, Wyatt would have to strike the villian several times to knock him out, and while he could ready an attack on Ike and probably get a sneak attack on him(since Ike would be flat-footed), it is safe to say that he'd probably not kill him before he is killed by the on rushing mob of gangsters(assuming there are several rogue and fighter types between 4th and 6th level).

So...hear are some house rules that I am considering:

1) You can do a CdG with subdual damage. If successful, your target takes 10 more points of subdual damage than he currently has in hitpoints. To me, this has always been a no brainer. You should be able to knock a helpless foe unconscious just as easily as you could kill him since it is done in all the time in movies and such.

2) Critical Strike: As a standard action(that provokes and AoO), you you can make a single attack against a flat-footed foe with a melee weapon or with a bow or crossbow if you are adjacent to your target. This attack is made at -4 to your normal attack roll. If it hits, it is automatically a critical threat. So you may make a second attack roll(with the same penalty) to determine if your hit is critical. This can be done with subdual damage as well(which would incur ussual penalties for weapons that do normal damage in addition to the -4 mentioned above).

The penalty can be adjusted to make it harder or easier depending on feedback I get.

So at lower levels, it will be difficult to pull off. At higher levels, you'll be giving up your Full Attack. Also, it requires your foe to be flat-footed(as opposed to loss of Dex) so it can really only be done in the first round of combat(or second round if some people missed the surprise round). I could be convinced to make it for people who are denied their dex bonus, but I don't really want Rogues to be immune and I don't want invisible or blinking people doing it during normal combat rounds beyond the first.

Also note that it allows an AoO...so it could be stopped by non-flatfooted allies of the target...

Without this rule, Ike's response to Wyatt's threat: "Yeah right. I can take a single hit from you even with your sneak attack damage. Get 'em, boys!"

With this rule: "Oh wait...I'm flat-footed and you just readed a critical strike...that'll be 2d8+2d6+10 damage. That might kill me! We'll meet again..."

I could see adding some feats like Improved Critical Strike(allows you to do Critical Strike without provoking an AoO) and Supreme Critical Strike(allows you to replace one of your attacks in a Full Attack Action with a critical strike).

What do you think?

As a general rule, I don't add house rules unless I deem it necessary for the game to be fun. So I don't even know if I will use it, but I often find the game lacking in mechanics to allow someone who clearly has a foe at a major disadvantage to either take him out very quickly or to give him a major incentive to back down or surrender...

 

[whatisitgoodfor]

At that moment, Wyatt Erp(Rogue3/Ranger3/Fighter4) rushes out and somehow incapacitates the villian with subdual damage with one hit to the back of the head. There is no way in D&D to do this that I know of with out a drawn out fight.

Critical hit (head shot) with an unarmed strike (probably increased damage from feat selection) plus favored enemy bonuses and sneak attack. This is very workable. I have seen crits from rog/rangers that deal a lot of damage, especially if the campaign allowed any way for non-monks to increase their unarmed damage.

As Ike steps forward, Wyatt puts his sword to Ike's throat and says "You can probably take me in a rush, but I promise you, you'll die first." At this point, Wyatt could simply kill Ike at any points he chooses. No problem. Again, can't really be done in D&D.

Ike doesn't resist Earp putting the weapon to his head, which IMO lets Earp set up for a CDG attempt. The rules simply state that under normal melee conditions you will never get a chance to do this. Basically, when an opponent isn't resisting the action, they should be considered to be helpless for CDG.

 

[Uller]

Critical hit (head shot) with an unarmed strike (probably increased damage from feat selection) plus favored enemy bonuses and sneak attack. This is very workable. I have seen crits from rog/rangers that deal a lot of damage, especially if the campaign allowed any way for non-monks to increase their unarmed damage.

But there's the rub...it relies on a lucky shot(I know...a 10th level character tends to have stuff like Improved Crit, but it still relies somewhat on luck). I'm hoping for something where, at the beginning of combat, someone can decide if they want to try to incapacite their foe in one quick shot or not. Give the attacker an option with pro's and cons. Not just attack and hope for the best.

Ike doesn't resist Earp putting the weapon to his head, which IMO lets Earp set up for a CDG attempt. The rules simply state that under normal melee conditions you will never get a chance to do this. Basically, when an opponent isn't resisting the action, they should be considered to be helpless for CDG.

I think the intention of the scene is that Wyatt is too quick for Ike, not that Ike just allows him to shove his gun in his forehead. Besides, what if your opponent is simply unaware of you and therefore not resisting(maybe you are invisible and moved silently right next to him and he is standing still)? Are you going to allow a CdG then? Seems like too common a circumstance to allow such a manuever(besides, in the surprise round, there can be no CdG since it is a FRA).

What I'm looking for here is for _most_ characters to have some chance of doing significant damage to flat-footed foes, but include some serious cost so that it will only be used in dramatic situations where one character has a serious advantage over another. So I don't want to rely (entirely) on feats or class abilities(although those should certainly help!).

 

[hong]

Westerns and samurai tales have a _lot_ in common, and OA has a bunch of rules to cover these situations. The standoff in the street becomes an iaijutsu duel. The staring-down of a villain becomes a psychic duel. A one-shot kill is a use of the Iaijutsu Focus skill to add bonus damage in the surprise round. And so on.

Ah, you might say, but iaijutsu involves swords, and these guys have guns. Ah, I say, this is a _D&D rules issue_ we're talking about, and D&D has swords, so it's still quite relevant.

 

[Al]

Good flavour text, but the proposed rules are potentially awry.

1. Seems fine in principle, but perhaps not in practice. Any fool can slit someone's throat, bludgeon someone's brains out or stab their eyeball. It is somewhat more difficult to knock someone out altogether without killing them. How does one knockout an opponent with, say, a dagger? Alternately, how does one knock a foe out with a mace without accidentally fracturing their skull, causing massive bleeding and death?

2. is broken from a game balance point-of-view. You have got to be joking. -4 to hit for an automatic threat? Sign me up right away. A high-level character with, say, a bow, can use this for his primary attacks which are nearly guaranteed to hit in order to perform a x3 critical. And I'd hate to have high-level scythe-wielder or mercurial greatsword wielders to hand with this rule... It also makes a total mockery of Power Attack. Using Power Attack, you can take a -4 to hit for a +4 to damage. How much extra damage will you be dealing with a successful critical? At high-level, with enchantments and strength factored in, probably at least an extra 10 for a x2 crit multiplier, going up to an extra 20 for x3 and 30 for x4. Of course, that's only a moderate combatant. By the time the raging barbarian wielding his mercurial greatsword two-handed has come in, we could easily be talking a supplementary 50 or more points of damage.

So nice flavour text, but unfortunately 1. doesn't work logically, and 2. doesn't balance.

 

[Uller]

Good flavour text, but the proposed rules are potentially awry.

1. Seems fine in principle, but perhaps not in practice. Any fool can slit someone's throat, bludgeon someone's brains out or stab their eyeball. It is somewhat more difficult to knock someone out altogether without killing them. How does one knockout an opponent with, say, a dagger? Alternately, how does one knock a foe out with a mace without accidentally fracturing their skull, causing massive bleeding and death?

Then how about this: If you do a subdual CdG, you do subdual damage, but if they fail their fort save(or maybe if they fail by a certain amount, like 10), they still die. So if you do enough to knock them out, they're unconscious, but if you over do it, you kill them accidently...oops!

2. is broken from a game balance point-of-view. You have got to be joking. -4 to hit for an automatic threat?

More than that:
Standard action(so no full attack) which can be a big deal at higher levels

-4 to attack(which is a big deal at lower levels...but like I said, I'd be willing to make this -6 or even -10). Perhaps add a rule that this penalty is adjustable depending on the circumstances. So that in the course of most encounters, the DM can make it so difficult that it simply is not worth while. But in high drama situations, it can be done(both by PCs and NPCs). Also, the penalty applies to your critical threat role.

Target must be flat-footed, so this is a surprise round only thing.
You must be adjacent to your target if using a bow.

Provokes and AoO so any non-flatfooted enemies would get chance to stop you.

Most combats in my game begin with a surprise round, so in most cases, you wouldn't even be able to move to do this.

Sign me up right away. A high-level character with, say, a bow, can use this for his primary attacks which are nearly guaranteed to hit in order to perform a x3 critical.

And he'd be giving up 3 other attacks, each of which could crit also. (unless he had the feats, but those are just theoretical). So you've got an easy shot and your attacks(using Rapid Shot) are +20/+20/+15/+10(or +22 w/ a single attack). You have an opponent who was suprised and you beat him in init in the first full round. You could do critical strike with a +18(or +16 or +12) and do 3X damage(and give any nearby foes a free attack) or do a full attack and have a good chance of dealing 4x or even more damage.

And I'd hate to have high-level scythe-wielder or mercurial greatsword wielders to hand with this rule... It also makes a total mockery of Power Attack. Using Power Attack, you can take a -4 to hit for a +4 to damage.

But you can use power attack anytime, not just the first round of combat.

How much extra damage will you be dealing with a successful critical? At high-level, with enchantments and strength factored in, probably at least an extra 10 for a x2 crit multiplier, going up to an extra 20 for x3 and 30 for x4. Of course, that's only a moderate combatant. By the time the raging barbarian wielding his mercurial greatsword two-handed has come in, we could easily be talking a supplementary 50 or more points of damage.

I know what a crit can do. I had a 6th level fighter w/ a greataxe deal something like 68 points of damage on a crit. That's the point. There are certain high drama situations where someone _should_ be able to kill a potential foe outright.

So nice flavour text, but unfortunately 1. doesn't work logically,

Not too concerned with "logic". A few games ago, my character was fleeing from some foes. He jumped from a height of 80' height, jumped up and continued running...He is now know as the dwarven meteor!

and 2. doesn't balance.

That's why I posted here. To get feedback. So...given that it can only be done to flatfooted opponents, provokes an AoO, is a Standard Action so it forces you to give up a full attack if you are doing it in a normal round, etc...what penalty to the attack roll would you think would be high enough to make it rarely worth while, but low enough to make it sometimes worth while? Can you think of anyother drawbacks to tack on? Maybe a penalty to your AC for a round?

 

[Uller]

I don't own OA...don't plan to either. So I can't really use those(and I don't want to ask people to post copyrighted material...so that's out).

Ah, you might say, but iaijutsu involves swords, and these guys have guns. Ah, I say, this is a _D&D rules issue_ we're talking about, and D&D has swords, so it's still quite relevant.

I used swords in my example.

The notion of giving the attacker a _chance_ do deal extra damage in the surprise round is exactly what I'm looking for though. Maybe a crit isn't the way to go...maybe something akin to Power Attack would work, but I don't want to trump characters who actually have PA...

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

The subdual CDG option sounds like a good one. I like the "if they fail their fort save by 10 points or more, they still die--guess you hit them a little too hard" rule too.

As for the other option, there are a couple of options for allowing characters know that Wyatt is right when he says ". . .buy you'll die first."

1. Power critical. Use it with a heavy pick or a scythe. Add a small doses of power attack and bake until massive damage save applies. This could easily be done as part of a readied action.

2. Death Blow. This Sword and Fist feat makes CDG a standard action. It only works on helpless foes but it does allow the villain to say "Stop where you are or the girl gets it!" Even if the girl in question is a 15th level fighter immobilized by hold person (or str damage from poison), she's still got a good chance to die if the hero doesn't stop where he is (or if the villain decides to kill her anyway).

The auto crit if you surprise your opponent and can still hit after a hefty penalty isn't a good solution for the reasons already suggested. If the attack penalty is really high (-8 to -12), a low level attacker won't be able to hit anyway. High level characters already have ways of punishing surprised opponents (power critical, expert tactitian, opportunist, +6d6 sneak attack, etc). Furthermore, for high level characters who often have +18 to hit,(the lower the penalty, the lower the level at which this occurs), -8 to hit could be a laughable penalty in return for an autocrit. (Especially with high multiplier weapons and/or energy burst weapons).

I suspect that the previous poster is right and you should look for into the Iajitsu rules in OA if that's what you want. Normal 3e is more the kind of world where Sir Gawiane and some other knight fight from morning until sunset and Robin Hood deftly shoots the dastardly villain through the eye before he can draw his knife across the girl's throat.

 

[S'mon]

I think D&D rules tend to assume Fighters are big guys in plate armour who whack each repeatedly other with large swords, 'Excalibur' style. D&D rules are _not_designed to model Western norms. So most D&D characters should NOT, IMO, be able to emulate 'Western' tactics. But in my game I've found that the Rogue and Monk PCs do a lot of sneaking around, 1-shot KOs to the back of the head, etc. A 7th level Rogue does a huge amount of Sneak attack bonus damage (+4d6), easily enough to take out many opponents with a single blow.

 

[Al]

Uller: Your point about full-attack vs. this is irrelevant for melee types. Unless the combat begins with the character adjacent to the enemies, a character cannot unleash his full complement of attacks anyway, and he needs to move and then use a standard attack. This could be used instead of a standard attack action in this scenario, almost invariably increasing the amount of damage dealt.
Further, for the x4 crit weapons and x3 crit weapons, it may be worthwhile to go for this even if you could perform a full-attack action. For example, mercurial greatsword wielder with iterative attacks +25/+20/+15/+10 could instead perform a critical strike at +21- since it is a x4 crit multiplier, this is similar in damage terms to making four attacks at +21/+21/+21/+21, almost invariably preferable.
With regard to OA, I think this is a good way to go. Essentially, you make a check using your Iajitsu Focus skill (although you could rename it according to the setting) and for every full 5 points above 5 (i.e. starting at a check of 10) you gain +1d6 sneak attack in the surprise round only. Thus, Wyatt Earp, with 13 ranks in Iajistu Focus, +2 Wisdom mod and an average check of 25 would do an additional 4d6 sneak attack damage. Couple that with his 2d6 sneak attack damage anyway, his d8+5 normal damage, his damage average goes up to a respectable 30 points- probably enough to take out Ike.