Rank the D&D 3.5 classes!

[Beal]

For example, monk, scoring low in the teir for it's poor hit ratio (fair judgement) is a fantastic multiclass.
Two levels of fighter offer an array of proficiencies, two feats and 2D10 HP...

 

[Beal]

Which is, again, why lists like this exist. So you can go "ah, this class needs more experience to play well, and this class needs more help from the DM".

For example, if you go back to the early posts on this thread, it shows a lack of understanding of how the game would progress. Nothing against anyone who posted, it was still early to see how things would fall out, though a lot of the worst imbalances were right there in the PHB, with things like Polymorph Any Object, Wish, Miracle, Gate, and Simulacrum. Fabricate/Wall of Iron was totally a thing (not to mention the Shrink Item/Wall of Iron combo), and it only got worse when more books came out.

But it is true that a good DM and a conscientious player can make even a very unbalanced class perfectly fine. For example, my last 3.5 game, I told the DM that I was going to play a Divine Metamagic Persist Cleric, but I was only going to use Persist on buff spells that affected the entire party.

And once I got rolling, everyone's numbers skyrocketed, but since it affected the group, no one person got to steal the spotlight. My usual contribution to a fight was Fiery Burst, my reserve Feat, unless I needed to heal someone!

The DM was able to respond by upping the challenge of encounters, but it did eventually come to a head when he admitted that he had reached his limit once we hit level 11.

And not once did any of the players feel overshadowed by my character, in fact, one of them (admittedly, the least savvy character), would often ask what I even did!

To which I just pointed to the index cards in front of him with his various buffs. "That's what I do."

All I meant was, Cleric is not necessarily the "BEST" class of 3.5. Neither is the wizard, or the fighter..there are plenty of reasons to take a druid over a cleric, and visa versa. It doesnt make sense to teir them in my opinion, because I dont agree one is difinitively better. It is situational.

You made a good point about some of the more exotic classes that appear in other books, and yes, the monolithic library as a whole cannot be perfect. But that is where experience comes in.

As to the players handbook, I don't feel that any class in particular is greater or lesser, they all have their place to shine.

A high level wizard is a force to be reckoned with, bo doubt... but at level one, it was at risk of dying from a hastily opened tavern door...

 

[James Gasik]

Maybe, but you're not likely going to use those weapon or armor proficiencies as a Monk. And it's not going to increase your chance to hit in the long run, as Monk 18 + Fighter 2 is still only a base attack of +15. Plus you're eventually giving up Empty Body and 2d10 Unarmed Strike damage, and +1 AC...although most likely you'll have taken some Prestige Class long before you reach this point. So it really depends on what those two Feats are...

 

[James Gasik]

All I meant was, Cleric is not necessarily the "BEST" class of 3.5. Neither is the wizard, or the fighter..there are plenty of reasons to take a druid over a cleric, and visa versa. It doesnt make sense to teir them in my opinion, because I dont agree one is difinitively better. It is situational.

You made a good point about some of the more exotic classes that appear in other books, and yes, the monolithic library as a whole cannot be perfect. But that is where experience comes in.

As to the players handbook, I don't feel that any class in particular is greater or lesser, they all have their place to shine.

A high level wizard is a force to be reckoned with, bo doubt... but at level one, it was at risk of dying from a hastily opened tavern door...

It's not like the Rogue is much better here, with his 2 more hit points, lol. And yes, Cleric is incredibly good. Here's why.

Can wear heavy armor. Can cast in heavy armor + shield. Full spell caster. Bonus spells from Domains. Domains can grant spells not on the Cleric spell list. Can prepare any spell on their class list each day, without having to spend a ton of money to put a spell in a spellbook. New book comes out with new Cleric spells? The Cleric has them.

Better saves than a Fighter. 1 less hit point per level than a Fighter. Can cast spells like Divine Power and Righteous Might to become equal to or better than a Fighter in combat.

Can craft a wide array of magic items at half price. Can solve narrative problems other classes cannot. Stuck in a desert with no way to survive? Create Water, Endure Elements, Lesser Restoration, Create Food and Water. Done.

Need to cross long distances quickly and safely? Say hello to Wind Walk. There's precious little the Cleric can't do, and the right Domain choices can give you some of the most powerful spells in the game.

 

[Beal]

Maybe, but you're not likely going to use those weapon or armor proficiencies as a Monk. And it's not going to increase your chance to hit in the long run, as Monk 18 + Fighter 2 is still only a base attack of +15. Plus you're eventually giving up Empty Body and 2d10 Unarmed Strike damage, and +1 AC...although most likely you'll have taken some Prestige Class long before you reach this point. So it really depends on what those two Feats are...

Actually, I like halfling druid/monk, with level one barbarian.
Quarterstaff, shieleighleigh (lv 2 spell)
Halfling improves attack roll, sheleighleigh rolls damage at +2 size. Then rage. Plenty od druid spells to add as well, and I suppose you could level barbarian anytime you need a +BAB.. only downside is experience penalty..
I'm not trying to put this build amongst the greats, but it's how I use the PH to improve the shortcomings of a class I really like

 

[Beal]

It's not like the Rogue is much better here, with his 2 more hit points, lol. And yes, Cleric is incredibly good. Here's why.

Can wear heavy armor. Can cast in heavy armor + shield. Full spell caster. Bonus spells from Domains. Domains can grant spells not on the Cleric spell list. Can prepare any spell on their class list each day, without having to spend a ton of money to put a spell in a spellbook. New book comes out with new Cleric spells? The Cleric has them.

Better saves than a Fighter. 1 less hit point per level than a Fighter. Can cast spells like Divine Power and Righteous Might to become equal to or better than a Fighter in combat.

Can craft a wide array of magic items at half price. Can solve narrative problems other classes cannot. Stuck in a desert with no way to survive? Create Water, Endure Elements, Lesser Restoration, Create Food and Water. Done.

Need to cross long distances quickly and safely? Say hello to Wind Walk. There's precious little the Cleric can't do, and the right Domain choices can give you some of the most powerful spells in the game.

After the giant is defeated, the party feels the earth shake. The floor gives out beneath you, and you fall into a sinkhole 1/4 mile deep unless you can reach safety in a single round....
Rogue lives, cleric dies... as an example. Just saying every class is weak. Every class is strong. It's a matter of play.

 

[James Gasik]

Actually, I like halfling druid/monk, with level one barbarian.
Quarterstaff, shieleighleigh (lv 2 spell)
Halfling improves attack roll, sheleighleigh rolls damage at +2 size. Then rage. Plenty od druid spells to add as well, and I suppose you could level barbarian anytime you need a +BAB.. only downside is experience penalty..
I'm not trying to put this build amongst the greats, but it's how I use the PH to improve the shortcomings of a class I really like

Oh Barbarian 1/Druid 1 is very beastly. But it advances terribly- you're held back on Wild Shape, which is a better source of stat bonuses than Rage, and you only get 1 Rage per day unless you sacrifice more Druid...

 

[James Gasik]

After the giant is defeated, the party feels the earth shake. The floor gives out beneath you, and you fall into a sinkhole 1/4 mile deep unless you can reach safety in a single round....
Rogue lives, cleric dies... as an example. Just saying every class is weak. Every class is strong. It's a matter of play.

How did the Rogue survive the fall from your deus ex machina pit trap? : )

The Cleric might have enough time to cast Air Walk falling that far. Or Summon an Air Elemental. Or any number of things.

The Rogue just...falls. Oh maybe he can reduce the falling damage by 10'!

 

[Beal]

How did the Rogue survive the fall from your deus ex machina pit trap? : )

The Cleric might have enough time to cast Air Walk falling that far. Or Summon an Air Elemental. Or any number of things.

The Rogue just...falls. Oh maybe he can reduce the falling damage by 10'!

Does the cleric still have spells? Does it even have that spellprepared?... a summoned elemental doesnt act that round...

Rogue. Rope and hook. Rope use skill.
Just saying.

 

[James Gasik]

Does the cleric still have spells? Does it even have that spellprepared?... a summoned elemental doesnt act that round...

Rogue. Rope and hook. Rope use skill.
Just saying.

You still didn't explain how they didn't die from the falling damage. Does the Rogue have a long enough rope? Did they even take Rope Use? There's a lot of skills a Rogue is going to want, and not even they get enough points for them all.

Yes, you can contrive a scenario where any character can wither. Your earlier example of stealing a Wizard's spellbook, for example. But in aggregate, the Cleric has a lot more options in a wider variety of scenarios than a Rogue.

For example, I'll cherry pick a counterexample. The party is facing a pack of ghouls. If they hit you, there is a fortitude save to avoid being paralyzed for several rounds and likely being killed.

The Rogue has a terrible AC, low hit points, and a bad save. The Cleric has a high AC, better hit points, a good save, Turn Undead, Free Action, Remove Paralysis...