D&D 3E/3.5 Ramifications of disallowing Haste in 3E?

[Crothian]

My problem with haste is not that it's too powerful for wizards and sorcerers. It's good for fighters too. People compare one one extra attack versus one extra high level kill spell and see that the one attack is inferior. However, if our fighter is hasted, he gets many more full attacks. Instead of Charge!, it can be partial charge + full attack.

It's a freaking addiction. Once someone fights with haste, they're going to prefer fighting with it to fighting without it. Soon, everyone fights with haste. For example, our wizard is probably going to be forced to take Mass Haste. Every will want the Haste power.

Then people without the ability to haste themselves are screwed at that point. Maybe it should be illegal to use against demihuman and human races.

Haste is good for eveyone. But an addicition? I can see wizards becoming pushers and fighters wondering the streets trying to get a haste fix.

I think all spells that increase something on the character sheet is potentially addictive. My bard would love to consistantly have +4 to his charisma, but I'm not forcing the Druid to give it to me everyday.

I like the idea of forcing the Wizard to take Mass Haste.

Fighter: "Need more Haste, I can squash all the little goblins. You need this Mass Haste Spell, Mage."

Cleric: "Even though I can't condone the forcing you of taking this spell. (Why don't you have access to all of them? It's so much easier that way.) It would be nice, because of all the people I can help with it on me."

Rogue:"Just get the damn spell, if you know what's good for you."

Mage"Oh..."

 

[Dristram]

Doesn't every arcane caster pick Magic Missile and either Bull's Strength or Cat's Grace, too? Is there a problem? I still fail to see what is so bad about every spellcaster picking haste.

I believe this is referring to my post. And I see I needed to have worded it differently. What I meant was not that they always take it. But always take it and always use it. Round one for a mage quickly becomes, "I cast haste, then improved invisibility". Later on it becomes, "I cast mass haste, then improved invisibility". It's just too predictable and boring. Let's not even go into round two with the mage casting fly on him/herself so he/she can cast lightning bolts from out of nowhere in the sky.

Now, in a very high-magic setting (of which I don't run), haste as is may be fine because spells such as invisibility purge and slow can be more common. I guess it really depends on the setting you run.

 

[Tylias]

I've sorta thought about it as the Wizard/Sorceror's version of extra attacks - extra attacks are useful for everyone, but least useful for sorcerors and wizards, who can't hit the broadside of a barn anyways. (That's an exaggeration, of course, but they are poor combatants with a capital P. Clerics are better at shooting rays that Wizards or Sorcerors - how much sense does that make?)

Of course, spells ramp up in power as Wizards and Sorcs. gain levels - if fighters can eventually attack 4 times per round, wizards and sorcerors casting 2 spells/round is powerful, but it does serve to enhance their strongest suit.

I don't see anything wrong with it. Of course, the fact that sorceror spell selection is as limited as it is locks it in as a must-have for many sorcerors, and that's kind of a shame. Still, I don't think it breaks the game.

 

[bmcdaniel]

Haste unbalanced

As I've explicated elsewhere, our group decided that Haste was unbalanced. Given the huge benefits and low cost, everyone took haste items (or spells). Pretty soon, our DM realized that all his NPCs needed haste items just to stay competitive. Your experience may vary, but our experience was that haste was too good for too cheap.

We also found it made the game less fun because pretty soon all the PCs and NPCs had haste (so there was no *net* re-distribution of power) but since you got more actions in your turn, there was less tactical maneuvering on the battlefield and you had to wait twice as long before it was your turn to act.

So, we dropped haste completely from the game (including all haste items). We didn't find that the absence of Haste obviouslly broke anything. One qualification, because our combats were typically dynamic set-piece raids, our party spellcasters rarely had to worry about running out of spells for the day. Overall our group was happy with it and have definitely decided that our next campaign will have no haste.

BM

 

[Crothian]

Re: Haste unbalanced

As I've explicated elsewhere, our group decided that Haste was unbalanced. Given the huge benefits and low cost, everyone took haste items (or spells). Pretty soon, our DM realized that all his NPCs needed haste items just to stay competitive. Your experience may vary, but our experience was that haste was too good for too cheap.

We also found it made the game less fun because pretty soon all the PCs and NPCs had haste (so there was no *net* re-distribution of power) but since you got more actions in your turn, there was less tactical maneuvering on the battlefield and you had to wait twice as long before it was your turn to act.

So, we dropped haste completely from the game (including all haste items). We didn't find that the absence of Haste obviouslly broke anything. One qualification, because our combats were typically dynamic set-piece raids, our party spellcasters rarely had to worry about running out of spells for the day. Overall our group was happy with it and have definitely decided that our next campaign will have no haste.

BM

Ya, that would get old really fast. I don't like to use any spell all the time, so I don't. I keep it varied. All these people who keep using the same stuff over and over. It gets stale.

 

[Bonedagger]

Reply for 1#

I think the problem with haste is the same as with fireball. There allways seems to be some use for them in most games. GM's please don't blame the players for your own mistakes. Instead incourage other spells in situations where they are more appropriate. It's basic behaivourisme. Let the players feel they have an actual choise to make when memorizing spells... It makes it more exciting. Just my thought.

 

[Crothian]

Re: Reply for 1#

I think the problem with haste is the same as with fireball. There allways seems to be some use for them in most games. GM's please don't blame the players for your own mistakes. Instead incourage other spells in situations where they are more appropriate. It's basic behaivourisme. Let the players feel they have an actual choise to make when memorizing spells... It makes it more exciting. Just my thought.

But it's also up to the players to find ways to use their other spells. Be creative. DM's have enough to do. PCs don't do anything but react. They show up and expect the DM to have everything ready.

 

[Bonedagger]

Re: Re: Reply for 1#

But it's also up to the players to find ways to use their other spells. Be creative. DM's have enough to do. PCs don't do anything but react. They show up and expect the DM to have everything ready.

Nothing but react? Hmm... Maybe that's your problem. It's there job to act (tell) the story not yours. You are the one who is supposed to react. You know:If they do something unexpected, change the surroundings accordingly (I'm not trying to lecture you). I speak from my experience as GM(DM.. what ever).... My point being: Try and tell your players about your view and the changes you are going to make(not that you are making any)... This would probably make the players chose differently because the don't know what to expect. And if they still fall back to the same old spells it could be because it's that kind of game they want to play (Or the kind of game you DM. Nothing bad there)

 

[Crothian]

Re: Re: Re: Reply for 1#

Nothing but react? Hmm... Maybe that's your problem. It's there job to act (tell) the story not yours. You are the one who is supposed to react. You know:If they do something unexpected, change the surroundings accordingly (I'm not trying to lecture you). I speak from my experience as GM(DM.. what ever).... My point being: Try and tell your players about your view and the changes you are going to make(not that you are making any)... This would probably make the players chose differently because the don't know what to expect. And if they still fall back to the same old spells it could be because it's that kind of game they want to play (Or the kind of game you DM. Nothing bad there)

I agree, I was exagerating for a point. It seems that if PCs always use haste they react to everything the same way. I don't have this problem. I'm just trying to help the people who have this problem besides banning the spell. There should be an easier way to deal with this spell. And go ahead and lecture. Most of us deserve it.

 

[Starfox]

Re: Haste unbalanced

because our combats were typically dynamic set-piece raids, our party spellcasters rarely had to worry about running out of spells for the day. Overall our group was happy with it and have definitely decided that our next campaign will have no haste.

BM

Well, with one fight a day, and time to prepare before that fight, haste certainly is very powerful. That is more a problem of tactics than of the spell, however.

Ya, that would get old really fast. I don't like to use any spell all the time, so I don't. I keep it varied. All these people who keep using the same stuff over and over. It gets stale.

You don't play sorcerers much, do you?