question on a couple of effects with a fighter

[Gilwen]

I am playing a fighter (Guardian build option, Iron Vanguard Paragon Path).

Iron Vanguard's 16th level feature is Trample the Fallen which lets me deal damage equal to my Con mod when I push or knock a creature prone.
My Shield Slam,Enounter 3 power Fighter from marital power, effect is you push the target 1 square and knock it prone.

Does my Trample the Fallen power kick in on for both since the Shield Slam's hit effect is both triggers? My con mod is +6 so would I be doinng +12 or just the +6?

Thanks,

Gil

 

[Stalker0]

Bonuses from teh same source don't usually stack.

Even though either condition can give you the bonus, the two together still give you the bonus, not twice the bonus.

 

[Elric]

Bonuses from the same source don't usually stack.

Is this actually the case? From the PH feats section

Unlike feat bonuses, however, untyped bonuses stack with themselves

 

[DracoSuave]

Is this actually the case? From the PH feats section

It's not a bonus, it's a triggered effect.

I don't see why it wouldn't trigger twice.

 

[Nichwee]

Assuming the 'or' in the trigger text is a typical 'or' from english then it won't trigger twice. I acknowledge this is an assumption, but I would expect a double triggering to be expressed explicitly as it is non standard english to work that way. It also makes things like an Earthfall Totem insane - as 2d6 extra damage if a person is pushed, slid or knocked prone would become a possible 6d6 damage if you could find a way to get all three at once from a single power.


You have, in computer speak:
IF (Trigger) THEN (Damage = ConMod).

The trigger has an 'or' in it but each time it is evaluated it simply checks if the Trigger returns true.
Push or Prone returns true for a push, a prone and a 'pushed prone'. 3 version but all give a single 'true' so give a single response (one lot of damage).

 

[DracoSuave]

Assuming the 'or' in the trigger text is a typical 'or' from english then it won't trigger twice. I acknowledge this is an assumption, but I would expect a double triggering to be expressed explicitly as it is non standard english to work that way. It also makes things like an Earthfall Totem insane - as 2d6 extra damage if a person is pushed, slid or knocked prone would become a possible 6d6 damage if you could find a way to get all three at once from a single power.


You have, in computer speak:
IF (Trigger) THEN (Damage = ConMod).

The trigger has an 'or' in it but each time it is evaluated it simply checks if the Trigger returns true.
Push or Prone returns true for a push, a prone and a 'pushed prone'. 3 version but all give a single 'true' so give a single response (one lot of damage).

Trample the Fallen (16th level): When you push a creature or knock a creature prone, it takes damage equal to your Constitution modifier.

This ability is not a 'if X, then get Y' power. It's a 'When X, do Y' power. X can happen multiple times during the same power.

Moreover the damage isn't bonus damage, so when you resolve the power:

First you deal the damage. Then you push the creature. This satisfies Iron Vanguard, so you deal its damage. Then you knock the creature prone. This satisfies Iron Vanguard, so you deal its damage.

The damage is not bonus damage. It is a triggered effect from an event that may occur multiple times in a single turn or even power usage.

An example of this in another situation would be Enduring Warrior from the same paragon path. If you drop multiple foes in one go (say, from a Cleave or Dual Strike) then you heal hit points twice. Triggered events are not inherently considered bonuses unless they say 'Gain a +x power bonus to damage until the end of your next turn'

 

[Nichwee]

According to Page 269 of PHB damage and effects all occur at the same point in resolving the attack (Step 5 in the list).

As such, they don't all happen one by one necessarily. So the trigger is still:
"When you (push a creature or knock a creature prone), it takes damage equal to your Constitution modifier."

The bit in the brackets, added my me, is still a single trigger. If a power happens to do both simultaneously, i.e. in a single resolution (as all the damage and effects are a single event in the resolution sequence), you only get one trigger still - as A,B,A&B are still single returns of the trigger each.

 

[UltimaGabe]

This ability is not a 'if X, then get Y' power. It's a 'When X, do Y' power. X can happen multiple times during the same power.

Moreover the damage isn't bonus damage, so when you resolve the power:

First you deal the damage. Then you push the creature. This satisfies Iron Vanguard, so you deal its damage. Then you knock the creature prone. This satisfies Iron Vanguard, so you deal its damage.

So, if the character in question has the ability to push the target 4 squares, does he get to apply the damage four times? One could argue that he's pushed the target one square (and thus satisfies Iron Vanguard) then pushes it another square (and thus satisfies Iron Vanguard) then pushes it another square (and thus satisfies Iron Vanguard) then pushes it another square (and thus satisfies Iron Vanguard). Yes, it's all part of the same action, but that's part of your logic too.

I suppose you could argue that a push and knocking something prone are different (more different than, say, a push and another push). What about pushing and sliding? Are those different? Let's say the character above equips the Sword of Kas, and uses the aforementioned Push 4 ability. The Sword of Kas allows you to turn any Pushes into Slides, so could you Push 2 squares and then Slide 2 squares, thus dealing damage twice? What about Push, Slide, Push, Slide? Would that work?

 

[Gilwen]

I can see that arguement but I see Push 1 and Push 4 as the samething since the way I resolve that in my mind is a single push that send the person flying X number of squares, especially since the fighter remains stationary in terms of his square.

My question arises because in my mind I see the Push and the Knockdown effects as separate effects of an action that causes it, which would trigger the trigger twice.

in psudeo computer speak it looks like this to me
foreach (trigger) in action (targetDamageTaken += X)

The turning pushes into slides would not trigger this in my opinion because the power specifcally says push. Slide, push, pull all are defined to have different meaning in the RAW.

gil

 

[Gilwen]

According to Page 269 of PHB damage and effects all occur at the same point in resolving the attack (Step 5 in the list).

As such, they don't all happen one by one necessarily. So the trigger is still:
"When you (push a creature or knock a creature prone), it takes damage equal to your Constitution modifier."

The bit in the brackets, added my me, is still a single trigger. If a power happens to do both simultaneously, i.e. in a single resolution (as all the damage and effects are a single event in the resolution sequence), you only get one trigger still - as A,B,A&B are still single returns of the trigger each.

That's a good post. I'll have to think about that.

Gil