Proposed Monk Rules Preview (not house rules)

[Shroomy]

Right, if I understand the problem correctly there is a very simple fix. Make MBA an implement power for monks. This would require just a simple errata to Unarmed Strike. Now your Ki focus applies to those attacks (it can keep the weapon keyword too I THINK, but having both can get pretty wonky so whatever needs doing there). At that point you've solved the issue with gaining an enhancement bonus, correct? Perhaps there also needs to be a 'use dex' thrown in there, but I'm not sure.

Monks can already apply a ki focus's enhancement bonus to their unarmed attacks without adding the Implement keyword. They can't use Dex to make the attack without taking the Melee Training feat.

 

[Artoomis]

Scaling bonuses to hit should only be in expertise feats, not in at-will powers, and certainly not in a power that's a basic attack. +1 is fine, but why the upgrade to +2?

Most (nearly all) basic attacks scale. Most are 1[W] at level 1 and 2 [W] at level 21. This ones give a minor bonus for using unarmed attacks. Maybe just the +1 is enough, though, since it is an unnamed bonus. Hmmm... that seems like a good idea.

Broken theme is broken. You shouldn't get free abilities from a theme after level 1, they need to be trade-offs.

Maybe so - though it seems in line with some other themes.

I think it's too much work trying to shore up a weakness in concept that doesn't actually ask the question if that concept is mechanically weak. Is the unarmed monk inviable or not working? What does it need to make it work?

Yes, the monk's unarmed strike is not viable currently, and that's despite having two feats aimed at giving it more damage and a better critical range. It simply does not work because the transition from weapon attacks to implement attacks during the monk's class development left it behind (whoops!!)

Is this just a round-about way of solving the perceived 'basic attack' issue? Is it just a way to add damage to a class that doesn't really need it as much as you perceive? There's other ways to solve the problem other than sticking on random damage adders here and there.

The pitiful basic attack is one of two fundamental problems with the monk; lack of any effectove use for the iconic unarmed strike being the other.

Taking a feat that gives you +4 damage per turn on an unarmed hit that stacks with weapon focus against your primary target, and +2 damage against additional targets?!? Zounds that's way too amazing for a class that's not actually suffering in damage.

The feat gives +2, not +4. You get another +2 if you take the theme. And you can get another bonus for weapon focus, but that's using two feats and a theme which does not seem unreasonable considering the trade-off of not being able to have any weapon powers or properties.

I get what you're trying to do, you're trying to 'fix' it so that unarmed strikes matter for a monk, and this is a laudable goal. However, I don't think the solution is 'Randomly add damage everywhere' given their damage is fairly balanced as a striker as-is.

I think the additional damage only makes it about equal to using a weapon, given the lack of any powers or properties for the unarmed strike. I think it makes it about equal.

Thanks for you valuable input. You are making me think, which is just what I want.

 

[Artoomis]

Monks can already apply a ki focus's enhancement bonus to their unarmed attacks without adding the Implement keyword. They can't use Dex to make the attack without taking the Melee Training feat.

Right, and that feat's been gimped. A monk is a striker, it really should have some form of reasonably effective basic attack. It does not need to be something amazing, but effective would be nice.

But for other attacks, the unarmed strike is currently always worse than using a weapon and a Ki Focus. That's largely because of weapon powers and properties being available for using a weapon - a Ki Club, for example. Plus there is a decide lack of support for unarmed combatants in general.

 

[DracoSuave]

Most (nearly all) basic attacks scale. Most are 1[W] at level 1 and 2 [W] at level 21. This ones give a minor bonus for using unarmed attacks. Maybe just the +1 is enough, though, since it is an unnamed bonus. Hmmm... that seems like a good idea.[/qupte]

This is hard to explain, but it has to do with the fact that damage increases at higher levels need to be higher to have the same relative effect, however because your chance to hit already scales with enemy defenses, a +1 bonus to hit at level 1 is the same as a +1 bonus to hit at level 21.

That which needs to scale in order to match increased creature defenses already scales.

Maybe so - though it seems in line with some other themes.

No theme in the Dark Sun book has increasing power for your attacks granted as a level 5 ability at no cost. Even the essentials idea of giving features at higher level has a trade off. Taking this theme, if themes are allowed, is strictly better than any other theme because you never have to trade a class power to get its benefits, which is completely unlike any other theme.

Yes, the monk's unarmed strike is not viable currently, and that's despite having two feats aimed at giving it more damage and a better critical range. It simply does not work because the transition from weapon attacks to implement attacks during the monk's class development left it behind (whoops!!)

The only problem with the unarmed attack vis-a-vis the monk is that it does not directly work with monk powers. However, ki focuses do. I agree that there needs to be some way to interact unarmedness with monk powers. A way to do that is to have a monk build that relies on the unarmed attack. The wrong way to do it is simply to make unarmedness 'more damage' with implement powers. Given that's all monks do, that becomes a no-brainer.

The pitiful basic attack is one of two fundamental problems with the monk; lack of any effectove use for the iconic unarmed strike being the other.

The lack of a basic attack is a weakness, however it is not a fundamental problem as the monk does not inherently use basic attacks as part of its shtick. The monk doesn't need it to charge because of their ability to combine mobility and attacks in one power, and thus the only need a monk has for it is opportunity attacks. It's a weakness, but it's not a weakness that cripples or gimps the character.

The feat gives +2, not +4. You get another +2 if you take the theme. And you can get another bonus for weapon focus, but that's using two feats and a theme which does not seem unreasonable considering the trade-off of not being able to have any weapon powers or properties.

+2 damage to implement powers and +2 damage to flurry of blows = +4 damage to the main target, and +2 damage to additional flurry of blows targets beyond the first.

2+2=4

I think the additional damage only makes it about equal to using a weapon, given the lack of any powers or properties for the unarmed strike. I think it makes it about equal.

Weapon properties such as high crit, and such, do not work with monk powers. Of the new expertise feats, only Staff expertise and Ki Focus expertise work with monk powers. Ki Focus Expertise is really good for a monk, and that'll boost your unarmed monk damage.

Thanks for you valuable input. You are making me think, which is just what I want.

No problem.

But for other attacks, the unarmed strike is currently always worse than using a weapon and a Ki Focus.

There does not exist a single monk attack that this is possible with; Implement attacks do not allow you to use your weapon as an implement AND substitute your ki-focus stats in it. Ki focuses can only replace weapon stats in weapon attacks. For implement powers, they function exactly as any other implement.

As well, monks who use weapons as an implement don't benefit from superior implement proficiency, because, again, you cannot use a ki focus with a weapon as an implement.

The solution is, of course, to make more competitive ki focuses, and to make an unarmed monk build similar to the weapon-based monk build in Psionic Power. But the thing to remember is that monks don't get to use a weapon AND a ki focus with their powers... that only works on weapon powers.

Improved Unarmed Strike is for multiclass/hybrid monks, not for the straight monk.

 

[Artoomis]

......Taking this theme, if themes are allowed, is strictly better than any other theme because you never have to trade a class power to get its benefits, which is completely unlike any other theme.

I don't think that's true for any current non-Dark Sun theme (I am not sure about Dark Sun themes, I'd have to go back an review them but they are the wrong thing to compare to anyway). You don't give anything up, you only gain. Two more-or-less random example:

Chevalier:

Level 5: Benefit: You gain a +2 power bonus to Diplomacy
checks and Intimidate checks.

Level 10: Benefit: You gain a +1 power bonus to saving
throws.

Order Adept:

Level 5: Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to Arcana checks....(plus a free utility power)

Level 10: Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to Will. Your bonus
to Arcana checks from this theme increases to +4.

...A way to do that is to have a monk build that relies on the unarmed attack.

That could be a way to go, but then you have to choose only that build and you lose a lot of other options as a result.

The wrong way to do it is simply to make unarmedness 'more damage' with implement powers. Given that's all monks do, that becomes a no-brainer.[/quote[

Only if if outstrips using weapons making it the obvious optimal choice. I don't think I've done that, though I will review it further to be sure. I think, at this point, I've just made is a viable alternative.

The lack of a basic attack is a weakness, ...but it's not a weakness that cripples or gimps the character.

True - it needs fixing, but it does not totally break the character.

...Weapon properties such as high crit, and such, do not work with monk powers. ...

True, but there are many weapon powers and properties that do not affect an attack and all those still work just fine with a Ki Focus. In the alternative, you can use a weapon with all its powers and properties and also use a Ki Focus for non0-attack powers or properties.

Two examples:

A Ki Weapon will give you +2 to Flurry damage even if using a Ki Focus for the attack.

An Elusive Action ki Focus gives +2 AC vs. OAs, even if you use a weapon as your implement. There is a useful encounter power, too.

For weapons, especially, there are many other examples of properties and/or powers you may want top use that don't affect an attack roll and thus can be used even if using a Ki Focus for the attacks.

This is why using a weapon is superior to using the unarmed strike.

Improved Unarmed Strike is for multiclass/hybrid monks, not for the straight monk.

No. Just ... no. It was clearly designed for monks before they switched from weapons to implement attacks. What, are you going to ask me to also believe that Unarmed Mastery is for multiclass/hybrid monks. That is straining credibility beyond the breaking point.

It's pretty clear that the designers just made an error and left in the monk's iconic unarmed strike but then stripped it of nearly all real value when the monk's attacks got changed to be implements for the final version.

 

[DracoSuave]

I don't think that's true for any current non-Dark Sun theme (I am not sure about Dark Sun themes, I'd have to go back an review them but they are the wrong thing to compare to anyway). You don't give anything up, you only gain. Two more-or-less random example:

Chevalier:

Level 5: Benefit: You gain a +2 power bonus to Diplomacy
checks and Intimidate checks.

Level 10: Benefit: You gain a +1 power bonus to saving
throws.

Order Adept:

Level 5: Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to Arcana checks....(plus a free utility power)

Level 10: Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to Will. Your bonus
to Arcana checks from this theme increases to +4.

None of those are in any way a bonus to damage.

That could be a way to go, but then you have to choose only that build and you lose a lot of other options as a result.

Which is fair, actually.

The wrong way to do it is simply to make unarmedness 'more damage' with implement powers. Given that's all monks do, that becomes a no-brainer.

Only if if outstrips using weapons making it the obvious optimal choice. I don't think I've done that, though I will review it further to be sure. I think, at this point, I've just made is a viable alternative.

The only aspect of weapons that affect monk powers are the enhancement stuff on the magic side (enhancement bonuses, critical damage, etc). Everything else with the exception of the defensive property cannot apply to monk powers because monks have no weapon powers.

Thusly, the problem is solved simply by having ki focuses have enhancements that are competitive with weapon enhancements. Everything else is a wash.

True, but there are many weapon powers and properties that do not affect an attack and all those still work just fine with a Ki Focus. In the alternative, you can use a weapon with all its powers and properties and also use a Ki Focus for non0-attack powers or properties.

That's a single weapon, and it can be fixed through errata of the weapon.

Two examples:

A Ki Weapon will give you +2 to Flurry damage even if using a Ki Focus for the attack.

An Elusive Action ki Focus gives +2 AC vs. OAs, even if you use a weapon as your implement. There is a useful encounter power, too.

For weapons, especially, there are many other examples of properties and/or powers you may want top use that don't affect an attack roll and thus can be used even if using a Ki Focus for the attacks.

This is why using a weapon is superior to using the unarmed strike.

I do relent this case, however the difference in power isn't so overwhelming as to be broken. This is no different than any character carrying a second magic weapon for its property even if they have no intention to attack with it.

No. Just ... no. It was clearly designed for monks before they switched from weapons to implement attacks. What, are you going to ask me to also believe that Unarmed Mastery is for multiclass/hybrid monks. That is straining credibility beyond the breaking point.

I'm not disputing that was its original purpose. Purposes change. The feat does serve a purpose for a specific kind of character. It doesn't need to serve some other purpose to address a perceived imbalance... are weaponless monks suffering from a damage deficit that makes them incapable as strikers?

The answer is no. Therefore, the fix shouldn't be 'MOAR DAMAGE RAWR.' Club-Stone Fist is the damaging build of choice. There is only one maximum damage build for each striker, other builds have to offer something else, and that trade-off is damage.

Your solution is simply to make unarmed monks rediculawsome and there's no need for it. Instead, why don't you give the unarmed monks the capacity to do -something else- that allows players who want more than DPR from their strikers to shine. That's why I suggest a build, that way a monk can choose.

So far your only solution has really been to just go 'MOAR DAMAGE HAHAHA' but I don't think that's the right way to go. You don't want to obsolete current builds that are also just fine, thematicly.

I think a simpler solution is to have a new Monastic Tradition:

Tiger Claw
Mental Precision: When you are wielding no weapons in either hand, you gain a +1 to attack rolls. You may use Dexterity instead of Strength on melee basic attacks using an unarmed strike.
Tiger Claw Flurry of Blows would deal 2+Constitution modifier damage and slow the target, or immobilize them if they are not the target of the triggering attack.

That'd be a decent way of increasing unarmed damage, but you'd take a hit on your flurry damage. But, +1 to hit is always good, and is competitive (without being the obvious forerunner) with ClubStone Fist.

It's pretty clear that the designers just made an error and left in the monk's iconic unarmed strike but then stripped it of nearly all real value when the monk's attacks got changed to be implements for the final version.

I think the redesign made it that SUperior Weapon Proficiency wasn't the obvious damage adder it would be with weapon powers. a +3 1d10 unarmed strike doesn't compete with a two-handed superior weapon, which is something decidedly unmonk-like. The current monk never needs a weapon, while making it so that if you want a weapon monk you're not gimping yourself.

I agree unarmed needs some support, but it doesn't need a myriad of damage adders to accomplish it. There's other ways.

 

[Artoomis]

None of those are in any way a bonus to damage.

True, but I was addressing your comment of "you never have to trade a class power to get its benefits," and pointing out that this is true for all the current themes (non-Dark Sun, at least). Yes, this is, perhaps, the only damage bonus (I'd need to re-read them all to be sure), but that, in and of itself, does not make it unbalanced or inappropriate.

...everything else with the excepetion of the defensive property cannot apply to monk powers because monks have no weapon powers.

Actually, there are lots of exceptions, many powers or properties that are very useful, even if not for an attack.

Thusly, the problem is solved simply by having ki focuses have enhancements that are competitive with weapon enhancements. Everything else is a wash.

No, because that just makes using a ki focus better; using a weapon always can give something (perhaps several things) extra than one cannot get unarmed.

That's a single weapon, and it can be fi

.... This is no different than any character carrying a second magic weapon for its property even if they have no intention to attack with it.

Ah, but it is different for a monk - it's an extra option form monks..

...
Tiger Claw
Mental Precision: When you are wielding no weapons in either hand, you gain a +1 to attack rolls. You may use Dexterity instead of Strength on melee basic attacks using an unarmed strike.
Tiger Claw Flurry of Blows would deal 2+Constitution modifier damage and slow the target, or immobilize them if they are not the target of the triggering attack. ...
I agree unarmed needs some support, but it doesn't need a myriad of damage adders to accomplish it. There's other ways.

Now this is worth thinking about. It's not yet good enough to be on par with weapons, but not a bad start.

BTW, have you played a monk? I do, and the value of a monk using a weapon (or two) is way more than you seem to think. In my case, my primary weapon (club) adds +4 to Flurry damage even though the Ki Focus give the attack/damage bonus! Of course, +2 of that is from a feat.

Also, I get +1 AC/Reflex from a Rhythm blade as well as (at the cost of a feat) another +1 AC from a Parrying Dagger, the latter which also would get lost if unarmed.

This is just one example, but if this monk PC were to go unarmed (meaning one hand free), he would lose either +2 AC/+1 Reflex or +4 Flurry Damage. And this is just one example. Going unarmed would be suboptimal in a major way.

 

[mneme]

Actually, while I don't know what they designed/tried before that, we -saw- a playtest monk that would work with Unarmed Mastery and who was all implement powers.

The original Ki Focus wasn't restricted to weapon attacks when replacing weapon enchantments. So before they made it only able to replace weapon attacks (presumably to stop it from being used as the uber-implement before Essentials got rid of MID) Unarmed Mastery would have worked just fine; you use your Fist as your implement, enhance with Ki Focus, and bingo.

But no revealed version of the monk used the Unarmed Strike's abilities for its own attacks (for implement attacks, yes, and it would be nice to see eratta fixing the ability to do this).

Regarding Unarmed, I see a few more or less obvious solutions:

1. You do want to have a reward for leaving a hand empty, as even if you never use it, a weapon can be useful. The traditional bonus is +1 or +2 to AC/Reflex -- which would make an Unarmed Monk a more defensive monk.

2. You also, IMO, want a reward for leaving both hands empty. This one should probably be an offensive bonus, to provide an opposing pull for both missing the extra weapon/power/property and for not having acess to Starblade Fury or the other monk weapon feats. If you're letting monks easily get a bonus to AC and reflex for leaving a hand empty, maybe with two hands empty and the right class feature (this is definitely a class feature level ability), they should be able to grab on basic attacks? This is certainly a secondary defender ability -- but that's fine for a class feature. For a flurry feat, what about "you may shift 1 after a hit before choosing targets for your flurry?" Actually, for a straight build, I'd do "if you have two free hands, knock targets of your flurry prone if they were not the target of the attack"

 

[Artoomis]

...
Regarding Unarmed, I see a few more or less obvious solutions:

1. You do want to have a reward for leaving a hand empty, as even if you never use it, a weapon can be useful. The traditional bonus is +1 or +2 to AC/Reflex -- which would make an Unarmed Monk a more defensive monk.

2. You also, IMO, want a reward for leaving both hands empty. This one should probably be an offensive bonus, to provide an opposing pull for both missing the extra weapon/power/property and for not having acess to Starblade Fury or the other monk weapon feats. If you're letting monks easily get a bonus to AC and reflex for leaving a hand empty, maybe with two hands empty and the right class feature (this is definitely a class feature level ability), they should be able to grab on basic attacks? This is certainly a secondary defender ability -- but that's fine for a class feature. For a flurry feat, what about "you may shift 1 after a hit before choosing targets for your flurry?" Actually, for a straight build, I'd do "if you have two free hands, knock targets of your flurry prone if they were not the target of the attack"

Interesting stuff. Definitely worth thinking about...

 

[DracoSuave]

True, but I was addressing your comment of "you never have to trade a class power to get its benefits," and pointing out that this is true for all the current themes (non-Dark Sun, at least). Yes, this is, perhaps, the only damage bonus (I'd need to re-read them all to be sure), but that, in and of itself, does not make it unbalanced or inappropriate.

Actually, it does. Skill bonuses are not equivalent to damage bonuses in terms of balance. It just isn't.

Actually, there are lots of exceptions, many powers or properties that are very useful, even if not for an attack.

That's enhancement properties. I am speaking strictly of weapon properties, which are properties on the weapon table. Only defensive affects implement attacks by dint of it being, well, defensive.

No, because that just makes using a ki focus better; using a weapon always can give something (perhaps several things) extra than one cannot get unarmed.

That's a single weapon, and it can be fi

Ah, but it is different for a monk - it's an extra option form monks..

So, wielding a weapon in the off-hand other than the main weapon is a different option for monks than for rogues? It's okay that rogues and warlocks can do it but for monks it's broken? Why is that? You have proved it's optimal damage-wise, but you haven't proven or addressed whether it is overpowered.

You need to know where damage stands with a monk in relation to normal strikers before you can start monkeying around with damage and giving them more.

Now this is worth thinking about. It's not yet good enough to be on par with weapons, but not a bad start.

You greatly underestimate the power of +1 to attack.

Level 1 monk, 18 des 18 str attacks with a power that does 1d8 damage. Using a club, that's 1d8+4, +9 flurry, for an average damage of 17.5 with a hit. That's +4 to hit against average defenses of 14, for a total chance to hit of .55. With this feature, and the free feat slot, that means 0.65 to hit for 14.5 average.

Damage per round for the first attack is 10.5, for the second is 9.4, which is fair for a slightly more controlling flurry. At higher levels tho, the StoneClub monk's extra damage won''t scale with level as favorably, as +2 damage is less of a proportional increase of damage as your damage without that bonus adds up, whereas +1 to attack automatically scales as your damage scales. This is similar in principle to the 'trap' nature of Power Attack. A differential to hit is generally considered preferable to a differential of damage.

On top of this, this build is intended for off-controlling, so that your non-damaging effects will hit more. At the end, it's balanced with current weapon using monks, without trying to obsolete them.

BTW, have you played a monk? I do, and the value of a monk using a weapon (or two) is way more than you seem to think. In my case, my primary weapon (club) adds +4 to Flurry damage even though the Ki Focus give the attack/damage bonus! Of course, +2 of that is from a feat.[/'quote]

But is this damage too high, too low. You're addressing the problem in the wrong contexts... you're stuck in the mindset that only damage matters for a striker, which is a paradigm that is restricted to CharOp, but actually has little merit when applied to the player base as a whole. Instead of trying to make another 'only does damage' monk and make the decision of unarmed vs weaponed pointless, instead make unarmed work to the monks other strengths, which is control and/or mobility.

Also, I get +1 AC/Reflex from a Rhythm blade as well as (at the cost of a feat) another +1 AC from a Parrying Dagger, the latter which also would get lost if unarmed.[//quote]

A feat is not a small cost.

This is just one example, but if this monk PC were to go unarmed (meaning one hand free), he would lose either +2 AC/+1 Reflex or +4 Flurry Damage. And this is just one example. Going unarmed would be suboptimal in a major way.

A common misconception is that the goal of a build is to be optimal at the primary role's primary job. If that's the case, strikers would only ever have one build. The problem here is you're not trying to 'fix a balance', you're trying to make weapon-use obsolete because of perceived injustice to unarmed attacks in terms of damage or defenses, without acknowledging there's other possibilities.

Instead of trying to make yet another bland striker-does-moar-damage fix, which is boring and adds nothing to the class that isn't already available, and is only designed to assuage a small section of the D&D populace (minmaxers), instead you should use the opportunity presented by the void left by unarmed attack and take it into a different direction.

A good example of this is the brawler fighter. Instead of going for yet anothe +1 to attack or does more damage style class feature, it goes in a different direction and gets grabby, making the character into a unique lockdown master. The opportunity was answered with something new, rather than simply trying to compete on the same-ol-same-ol.

There's no reason you can't do something similiar with unarmed attack, going for the other aspects of the striker role or the monk's secondary controller role, rather than simply piling on damage in the hopes it balances that out.