Pathfinder 2E Problems with percieved overpowered encounters in Pathfinder 1e+2e?

[Zubatcarteira]

Forgetting how to do the thing you could do yesterday is exactly how preparing spells works, so that's been a thing for a while.

 

[Kichwas]

Yeah I touched on that in my edits. I would personally prefer if the untrained rank allowed you to add your level -2, and then Untrained Improvisation removed the -2 penalty. The difference between untrained and trained+ skills becomes egregious once you get to mid to high levels.

There are feats, such as 'Untrained Improvisation' that let you boost untrained rank.
- That can be used to construct a 'general do it all' that can at least do any task not requiring training.

Couple it with something like the loremaster dedication and you also have a 'know-it-all'.

 

[Kichwas]

This whole making choices and having limits is a key aspect of the design for any game based on classes and levels.

It's the difference between playing this and something like GURPS or Champions.

The limits work to give everyone in the party a clear idea of their role in the group. I'm the character that does the thing with the stuff, you're the character that does stuff with the things.

I spent most of my gaming experience in 'point based classes tRPGs' and always used to think they were better as yes - they can reflect a person much better.

But what they fail at is giving you a clear sense of 'game purpose'.

There's a reason MMOs push you into a clear role. Even ones like Elder Scrolls and Guild Wars were you have so much going on with builds, and in particular Elder Scrolls where your class almost fades into the background - other things are in play to push people to a clear role. BUT they are weaker at doing it than a more 'this is your purpose in the game' MMO like FFXIV or WoW. So people mostly play FFXIV and WoW. You jump in and the game gives you a purpose.

Pathfinder does that. D&D used to do that. I don't know 5E - but the conversation here makes me think the game has forgotten why Gygax gave it classes and levels. It was to tell a player, the moment they sat down; what they were there at the table to do. So they could jump right in and game.

If you want 90% roleplay and 10% game - there's always Theatrix. And I mention that now obscure olf tRPG for a reason. It's the polar opposite of the classic D&D experience. Nothing is set in Theatrix and it's all about the roleplay. There's almost no 'game' to the game. That can leave players who are not drama majors or actual actors sitting at the table and lacking a sense of purpose. It can leave any player lacking a sense of challenge. It's more of a guide to improv acting than it is a game.

PF2E is much closer to the classic D&D side of things. It's a game, that has roleplaying. And the limits and boundaries work to provide structure for the game and it's group of different players. Give each player a distinct purpose by limiting their options, so they each have a sense of purpose and know what to do with the character they are playing.

 

[billd91]

Pathfinder does that. D&D used to do that. I don't know 5E - but the conversation here makes me think the game has forgotten why Gygax gave it classes and levels. It was to tell a player, the moment they sat down; what they were there at the table to do. So they could jump right in and game.

If you want 90% roleplay and 10% game - there's always Theatrix. And I mention that now obscure olf tRPG for a reason. It's the polar opposite of the classic D&D experience. Nothing is set in Theatrix and it's all about the roleplay. There's almost no 'game' to the game. That can leave players who are not drama majors or actual actors sitting at the table and lacking a sense of purpose. It can leave any player lacking a sense of challenge. It's more of a guide to improv acting than it is a game.

PF2E is much closer to the classic D&D side of things. It's a game, that has roleplaying. And the limits and boundaries work to provide structure for the game and it's group of different players. Give each player a distinct purpose by limiting their options, so they each have a sense of purpose and know what to do with the character they are playing.

That analysis largely misses the fact that many topics, like skills, were completely undefined in early D&D. Fighting men fought, clerics healed and disposed of undead, and magic users cast arcane spells. But when it came to knowing things or doing skillful things that weren't encapsulated in those 3 activities above, everything else was fair game without limits and boundaries except what the DM decided to invoke. Kind of more like improv acting, planning, and debating with the DM than it was a game.

 

[Thomas Shey]

there's a huge cognitive disconnect in the way pathfinder try's to limit players. I think it's one of the limiting factors that will prevent it from ever becoming as large as DND. giving someone an ability and saying "it's magic" works it's easy to accept. Saying no you can now be a specialist evoker but you forget everything you knew about being a specialist Diviner is just mentally painful and weird.

I accept that it is for you. But I'll be really blunt; it doesn't seem even a tiny bit weirder to me than fire and forget spells, armor that makes you harder to hit, and going up in level making you harder to kill in a fall. And I'm not sure this one will make people who grew up on MMO's even blink.

D&D-sphere games are super-stylized in some ways, and this is just one other. I again, accept it seems different to you, but I've got to say that's likely just because the other things I mention above you're used to, and this one you aren't.

I get the reason for the mechanic, it apeals to the min-maxer crowd which is Pathfinder's core group of customers but for non min-maxer's it's like pebbles in your shoes. And that kind of lack of continuity to achieve a goal is fundamental to the entire pathfinder design. It's why magic is so goofy in pathfinder. Things are just decided in individual spells that contradict with what other spells do to keep balance.

Here's another example: If you're going to try and convince me that D&D-sphere spells have ever been done to any useful common metric, let's just say its going to be heavy lifting. They've been arbitrary as could be from day one.

Playing either version of pathfinder for me is like walking around with pebbles in each shoe. The only thing worse for me is when people try to tell me that it all makes sense. Because not one single system in pathfinder that is designed logically from start to finish. They just add arbitrary rules to achieve design goals. Obviously not my game. I tried 2e. I'll play 1e if it's the only game available but the arbitrary rules just suck the fun out of it.

Like I said, so, D&D?

 

[Thomas Shey]

Typically, class and skill system are separate in D&D and derivatives.

You still have situations in almost all of them where they want to silo off things to particular classes, whether they do it by skill costs or baked into class abilities that make some classes the clear winners in particular skill areas. The whole design of classes from day one has leaned in on that to one degree or another. Contrast that with GURPS or HERO or even Savage Worlds.

 

[nevin]

I accept that it is for you. But I'll be really blunt; it doesn't seem even a tiny bit weirder to me than fire and forget spells, armor that makes you harder to hit, and going up in level making you harder to kill in a fall. And I'm not sure this one will make people who grew up on MMO's even blink.

D&D-sphere games are super-stylized in some ways, and this is just one other. I again, accept it seems different to you, but I've got to say that's likely just because the other things I mention above you're used to, and this one you aren't.



Here's another example: If you're going to try and convince me that D&D-sphere spells have ever been done to any useful common metric, let's just say its going to be heavy lifting. They've been arbitrary as could be from day one.



Like I said, so, D&D?

ok then explain to me why I can cast a wall of fire in the air and when the ship sails through it only the sailors take damage. Vehicles in pathfinder only take damage if the effect is cast directly on them.....I can't think of a single thing like that in DND but I can come up with a book of em for pathfinder. tha'ts the stuff that makes me feel like it's a game with 4 nuns leaning over the table smacking finger's arbutrarily yelling that's not nice!.

 

[Thomas Shey]

That analysis largely misses the fact that many topics, like skills, were completely undefined in early D&D. Fighting men fought, clerics healed and disposed of undead, and magic users cast arcane spells. But when it came to knowing things or doing skillful things that weren't encapsulated in those 3 activities above, everything else was fair game without limits and boundaries except what the DM decided to invoke. Kind of more like improv acting, planning, and debating with the DM than it was a game.

It was also, I may add, a constant pain in the behind for some of us. There was a reason I bailed out of the D&D sphere for literally decades about the time AD&D came along so I wasn't constantly having to make broad decisions about something as simple as if and how fast someone could clime a 20' wall.

 

[Thomas Shey]

ok then explain to me why I can cast a wall of fire in the air and when the ship sails through it only the sailors take damage. Vehicles in pathfinder only take damage if the effect is cast directly on them.....I can't think of a single thing like that in DND but I can come up with a book of em for pathfinder. tha'ts the stuff that makes me feel like it's a game with 4 nuns leaning over the table smacking finger's arbutrarily yelling that's not nice!.

Why in most older versions of D&D was it possible for a living thing to resist disintegration, but other than magic items on everything else it just worked? Why did Cloudkill stop working at all on you if you were above a certain level?

Like I said, arbitrary as could be from day one.

 

[nevin]

For not nearly as big a pain in the behind as arguing with the players who want to check the books and stop the game now that there is a rule for nearly everything. your paradise is my hell.