Problems with Detect Evil

[Ziggy]

From the SRD:

<snip>

Aura Strength: An aura’s evil power and strength depend on the type of evil creature or object that the character is detecting and its HD, caster level, or (in the case of a cleric) class level.

Creature/Object......Evil Power
--------------------------------------
Evil creature...........HD / 5
Undead creature.......HD / 2
Evil elemental...........HD / 2
Evil magic item
or spell...................Caster level / 2
Evil outsider.............HD
Cleric of an
evil deity.................Level

Using the above table as it is written, all undead will detect as evil regardless of alignment (undead can be neutral or even good), and neutral clerics of an evil deity will also show as evil. This creates some interesting paradoxes, as e.g. baelnorns will detect as both good and evil.

We also got some symmetry problems with protection from evil, as either the protection spell works on some non-evil creatures (as detect evil), or there is some creatures detected as evil that protection from evil don't work on.

I suggest that the table should have stated:

Creature/Object.......Evil Power
---------------------------------------
Evil creature..............HD / 5
Evil Undead..............HD / 2
Evil elemental............HD / 2
Evil magic item
or spell.....................Caster level / 2
Evil outsider...............HD
Evil cleric of
an evil deity...............Level

Comments, suggestions, sage rulings ???

.Ziggy

 

[Dougal DeKree]

neutral cleric

Hi!

Well, i suppose since clerics have the duty of spreading their religion even a neutral cleric of an evil deity should register as evil, since she is actually helping her evil deity, which is IMHO an evil (long-term) act. The correction you made for undead seems correct to me.

Dougal DeKree, Gnomish Illusionist

 

[dvvega]

Don't forget that undead are created from Negative Energy ... this would constitute as evil IMO.

 

[hong]

From the SRD:



Comments, suggestions, sage rulings ???

.Ziggy

Suggestion: scrub the baelnorn. Good undead break one of the unstated assumptions of D&D.

 

[Ziggy]

Re: Re: Problems with Detect Evil

While the baelnorn is an anomaly, the MM lists zombies and skeletons as neutral. If they are automatically evil when created by negative energy, why list them as neutral ?

And remember that using negative energy is not necessarily evil, there are several spells that use negative energy that are not classified as evil (e.g. enervation).

Thus I don't agree with the assumption that negative energy=evil.

Regarding clerics, if neutral clerics of an evil god register as evil, should then neutral clerics following a good god register as good ? And what about an evil clerics of a neutral god, is he evil or not ? IMHO the spell should operate on the alignment of the character, not on the alignment of the god he is following, that just don't make sense.

.Ziggy

 

[pontus]

Ziggy, you may find this interesting

"The alignments for skeletons in the Monster Manual were assigned at a time when we made all nonintelligent creatures neutral. Since nonintelligent creatures can (albeit rarely) have an alignment, it makes sense for skeletons to be neutral evil."

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mm/mm20010126a

 

[smetzger]

Re: Re: Re: Problems with Detect Evil

Well Monsters of Faerun has an entry that mentions good liches.

I don't have any problem with the way that detect evil works. In fact I prefer it to work this way. It makes Paladins use more judgement before killing everything that detects as evil.

 

[Ziggy]

Ziggy, you may find this interesting

"The alignments for skeletons in the Monster Manual were assigned at a time when we made all nonintelligent creatures neutral. Since nonintelligent creatures can (albeit rarely) have an alignment, it makes sense for skeletons to be neutral evil."

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mm/mm20010126a

Very interesting, this strengthens the argument for all undead as evil (with baelnorn as an anomaly). And if we change the alignment, much of the paradox related to undead creatures goes away.

Then it is only a question of clerics. I still (strongly) feel that the detect spells should relate to alignment and not deity, and see no good reason for doing the way it is stated in the spell now. But if someone can find a good reason (based on official material) I'm willing to reassess my stand.

.Ziggy

 

[Ziggy]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Problems with Detect Evil

Well Monsters of Faerun has an entry that mentions good liches.

Those are baelnorns, and a bit of a paradox with the current rules.

I don't have any problem with the way that detect evil works. In fact I prefer it to work this way. It makes Paladins use more judgement before killing everything that detects as evil.

Do you then change the Protection from xxx spells ? Or are there creatures that register as evil which are unaffected by protection ? And do you use symmetry for all clerics (i.e. evil clerics of a neutral deity will not not be detected as evil) ?

.Ziggy

 

[Voadam]

Under standard rules every spell that creates undead (greater, lesser, and animate dead) have the evil descriptor. Animate dead is interesting because core animated dead are neutral. Therefore creating neutral undead taps into elemental evil magical power. Which could be justified as desecrating the dead being evil by definition in a D&D morality (or at least for the purposes of magics that desecrate corpses and mess with binding souls into undeath).

I have no problem with people or objects having multiple or conflicting auras i.e. neutral zombies detect as evil. In _Mythic Races_ the Risen Demon race always detects as evil, in addition to whatever their actual alignment is. So you can have Paladin Risen demons who detect as both good and evil.

Detecting as evil is just one more cost of becoming a lich, even if you are saintly good.