PrC: The Paladic

[reapersaurus]

Since Wizards now get very effective PrC's to multiclass between 3 disparate, and unrelated classes (rogue, cleric, and fighter), let me hash together an effective, broken, and flavorless Cleric and Paladin combo:

The Paladic

Hit Die: d8

Requirements:
To qualify to become a Paladic, a character must fulfill the following criteria:
Weapon Proficiency: Must be proficient with all martial weapons.
Base Attack Bonus: +4
Skills: Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks.
Turn Undead: Must be able to turn undead as a cleric and a paladin.

Class Skills:
The Paladic's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

BAB: As paladin
Saves: As paladin

 [color=silver]Level   Special 
-----------------------------------------------------------
1     Smite Evil progression, special mount
2     +1 Spellcaster Level
3     +1 Spellcaster Level
4     +1 Spellcaster Level
5     +1 Spellcaster Level  
6     +1 Spellcaster Level
7     +1 Spellcaster Level
8     +1 Spellcaster Level
9     +1 Spellcaster Level
10    +1 Spellcaster Level [/color]

Class Features:
All of the following are features of the Paladic prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Paladics gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Smite Evil: Levels in Paladic count as levels in Paladin when determining Smite Evil abilities. For example, a 6th level Paladic who also possesses 4 levels of Paladin will Smite Evil 3 times per day, dealing 10 extra points of damage.

Special Mount (Sp): At 1st level, a Paladic gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil (see Paladin entry). Levels in Paladic add to levels in Paladin for determining mount abilities.

Spells per Day: From 2nd level on, when a new Paladic level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. This essentially means that she adds the level of Paladic to the level of whatever other divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.
If a character had more than one divine spellcasting class before she became a Paladic, she must decide to which class she adds each level of Paladic for the purpose of determining spells per day.

Domain abilities: Levels in Paladic stack with any cleric levels for purposes of determining class level.
_____________________________

If anyone has a better name than Paladic for this PrC, please contribute.

 

[FireLance]

I think Paladic is fine, because Cleridin makes me think of pimple cream .

The DM in me doesn't like the Eldritch Knight either (although my inner powergamer can't wait to play one). There is one point to be made about the Fighter/Wizard multiclass as opposed to the Fighter/Cleric multiclass, though: few arcane spells lack somatic components and thus can be cast in armour with no chance of failure. Divine spells do not have this restriction.

Whether that should be the case is another thread entirely, though.

 

[Technik4]

So basically your contention is that this shows the Eldritch Knight to be overpowered. I don't think so, and I don't think this is as good as you think.

First of all, since the class specifically advances paladin abilities we need to slap on the code, to make sure ftr/clr don't get access to this prc. So, requirements include LG and following the paladin's code. Next lets add the Smite Evil 1/day requirement, since you can't advance an ability you don't have. This lets us axe the Turn Undead requirement, since it is understood (and why not let straight paladins take this class?). D8 is a good HD, the lesser of d10 or d8. However, we haven't ensured that this is for paladin/clerics since there is no spellcasting requirement. Lets make it level 2, ensuring you need 3 levels of cleric and 2 levels of paladin (or 8 levels of paladin).

Hit Die: d8

Requirements:
To qualify to become a Paladic, a character must fulfill the following criteria:
Weapon Proficiency: Must be proficient with all martial weapons.
Base Attack Bonus: +4
Skills: Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks.
Class Abilities: Smite Evil at least 1/day
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 2nd level divine spells

The class has only 1 good saving throw, so a cleric loses out on good will saves by taking it, a paladin loses out on hp. A paladin also loses out on Lay on Hands progression, which is a rather nifty ability, and never gets the ability to Remove Disease (not even once a week!). A straight paladin doesn't miss a beat on BAB, but is 1 spellcasting level behind, basically there is no reason to take this class as a straight paladin, so lets keep the cleric/paladin assumption going.

Smite Evil progression is maintained, as is mount progression. Lay on hands remains at your old paladin level and doesn't advance. So how does this benefit the Cleric?

Well, we already said she loses one of her good saving throws. Shes bound to the paladin code, and has at least 2 levels of paladin (meaning 2 levels her spell didn't advance). The first level doesn't enhance her spellcasting either, so the cleric is a slightly better fighter (martial weapons) but a worse spellcaster (3 levels behind dispel checks, spell resistance checks, caster checks to remove curses, and 1 or 2 spell levels behind a straight cleric!).

Personally I think its pretty bad for all involved, a pal/clr loses too much spellcasting, a straight paladin is better of staying a paladin, and a straight cleric doesnt qualify. The only possible munchkin combination is a Pal8/Clr1, but even then you are 8 levels behind a real cleric in terms of spellcasting, and way behind a a paladin in terms of special powers (lay on hands, remove disease), paladin-only spells, and have fewer hit points.

Technik

 

[reapersaurus]

So basically your contention is that this shows the Eldritch Knight to be overpowered. I don't think so, and I don't think this is as good as you think.
__________
Hit Die: d8

Requirements:
To qualify to become a Paladic, a character must fulfill the following criteria:
Weapon Proficiency: Must be proficient with all martial weapons.
Base Attack Bonus: +4
Skills: Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks.
Class Abilities: Smite Evil at least 1/day
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 2nd level divine spells

I like those requirements better.
I wasn't happy with the ones I cobbled together, and thought there'd be a better combo around....

Actually, I could have proposed a stronger class, but I wanted to start at the minimum of what I consider abusive.
What would you propose be added to make it palatable to you? D10 HD? 2 good saves?

P.S. I've concluded that the EK is uniquely broken, since it increases the class that has the lowest BAB AND HD + worst saves. A cleric can't replicate that.

 

[Saeviomagy]

P.S. I've concluded that the EK is uniquely broken, since it increases the class that has the lowest BAB AND HD + worst saves. A cleric can't replicate that.

You keep saying that, but I do not think it means what you think it means.

You also seem to have totally missed technik4's point - the class you've written up is at best worse than going straight paladin or straight cleric. It seems to defeat your entire argument. You might want try some refutations of that if any of us are to have fun arguing with you.

 

[reapersaurus]

Saev - I didn't know it was an argument - I said I liked Technik's prereq list better, and it works well.

As far as the power of the class, I actually haven;t thought it thru too hard yet.
Tell you what:
why don't you make a character, then I'll make a character using this PrC, and we'll see who is better in combat.

But since you seem to think it's underpowered, I'll ask you the same thing: What would you add to it?
It seems the biggest 3 things to add would be d10 HD, good FORT and Will saves, and/or full Turn Undead advancement.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Saev - I didn't know it was an argument - I said I liked Technik's prereq list better, and it works well.

The thread starts out with (paraphrasing) "The EK, MyT and AT are broken, and this class proves it". Technik4's response is "No it isn't, this class is a bit lame really".

As far as the power of the class, I actually haven;t thought it thru too hard yet.
Tell you what:
why don't you make a character, then I'll make a character using this PrC, and we'll see who is better in combat.

No we won't. We'll get bogged down in an interminable "well, my PC can..." argument with no conclusion, tainted by our own views of what good tactics are, and bounced around by a million and one tiny little variables that inveitably make such a comparison worthless.

But since you seem to think it's underpowered, I'll ask you the same thing: What would you add to it?
It seems the biggest 3 things to add would be d10 HD, good FORT and Will saves, and/or full Turn Undead advancement.

I'd say paladin turn undead progression, and allowing this class to stack for the purposes of the other paladin abilities would probably help greatly. In essence, a paladin would give up a bit of his paladiny stuff for some better spellcasting, and a cleric gives up some spellcasting for better combat ability.

 

[reapersaurus]

The thread starts out with (paraphrasing) "The EK, MyT and AT are broken, and this class proves it". Technik4's response is "No it isn't, this class is a bit lame really".

No, I started the Divine Knight thread like that.

In this one, I said Wizards had 3 "very effective" PrC's to choose from. I also expressed my attempt to make a broken Cleric/Paladin PrC. It was a quick, cobbled together attempt that apparently isn't broken enough.

If I would add abilities to a Cleric/Paladin PrC, I'm certainly prefer not to use them on Lay On Hands and Remove Disease. Those 2 abilities are trumped by Cure spells and cleric spellcasting getting Remove Disease anyway.

So I'm thinking that the reason that this PrC isn't broken yet is definately the loss of 3 caster levels.

I like your suggestion of Paladin Turn Undead advancement.

With those in mind, I'll edit the original post, adding in Technik4's prereqs and the other stuff. Tell me if you think it makes it overpowered :
I literally wanted to start low and add abilities until it seems broken, instead of the opposite that I see a lot.

 

[reapersaurus]

Actually, I'll add it down here, because the first version specifically address some Paladin Mount and Smite features...

The Paladic

Hit Die: d8

Requirements:
To qualify to become a Paladic, a character must fulfill the following criteria:
Weapon Proficiency: Must be proficient with all martial weapons.
Base Attack Bonus: +4
Skills: Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks.
Class Abilities: Smite Evil at least 1/day
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 2nd level divine spells

Class Skills:
The Paladic's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

BAB: As paladin
Saves: As paladin

 [color=silver]Level   Special 
-----------------------------------------------------------
1     Smite Evil progression, special mount, +1 Spellcaster Level
2     +1 Spellcaster Level
3     +1 Spellcaster Level
4     Turn Undead, +1 Spellcaster Level
5     +1 Spellcaster Level  
6     +1 Spellcaster Level
7     +1 Spellcaster Level
8     +1 Spellcaster Level
9     +1 Spellcaster Level
10    +1 Spellcaster Level [/color]

Class Features:
All of the following are features of the Paladic prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Paladics gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Smite Evil (Su): The fusion of cleric and paladin levels allows for the Smite ability to be based off of cleric, paladin, and Paladic levels, not only Paladin level. For example, a character with 3 levels of cleric, 2 levels of Paladin, and 5 levels of Paladic would Smite Evil 3 times per day, dealing 10 extra points of damage.

Special Mount (Sp): At 1st level, a Paladic gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil (see Paladin entry). The fusion of cleric and paladin levels allows for this mount's abilities to be based off of cleric, paladin, and Paladic levels, not only Paladin level.

Spells per Day: From 1st level on, when a new Paladic level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. This essentially means that she adds the level of Paladic to the level of whatever other divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.
If a character had more than one divine spellcasting class before she became a Paladic, she must decide to which class she adds each level of Paladic for the purpose of determining spells per day.

Turn Undead (Su): Paladic levels add to overall Turning ability as a Paladin's do; a Paladic turns undead as a cleric of three levels lower would.

Domain abilities: Levels in Paladic stack with any cleric levels for purposes of determining class level.

 

[Technik4]

You didn't specifically mention that paladics must follow the paladin's code (and therefore they lose Smites, Horsey, and I believe Spellcasting) but it is sort-of implied.

So, lets try and break it.

Pal5/Clr5
BAB: +8
HP: 10+4d10+5d8 (avg 54.5)
Spellcasting: Paladin 2nd level caster and Cleric 5 (1st level Paladin and 3rd level Cleric spells)
Abilities: Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 2/day (+Cha/+5), Divine Grace, Lay on Hands (5xCha), 2 Domain Abilities (at 5th level ability), Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Turn Undead (as a 2nd level cleric, 3+cha times/day AND as a 5th level cleric, 3+cha times per day), Special Mount (as a 5th level paladin).

Well this multiclass character suffers the usual flaw, by dividing between 2 spellcasting classes (albeit, the paladin is a minor spellcaster) you dilute your spellcasting making you overall less effective. The paladin levels will probably only end up contributing Bless Weapon, which is a very good spell, but its only 1/day. The paladin has reached most of the good paladin abilities, although they are also weakened by evenly multiclassing with cleric.


Pal2/Clr3/Pdc5
BAB: +7
HP: 10+1d10+8d8 (avg 51.5)
Spellcasting: Cleric 8 (4th level spells)
Abilities: Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 3/day (+Cha/+10), Divine Grace, Lay on Hands (2xCha), 2 Domain Abilities (at 10th level ability), Turn Undead (as an 5th level cleric, 3+cha times/day), Special Mount (as a 10th level paladin).

Compared to the split multiclasser, this one is a leg up as a few of those paladin abilities are at 10th level power instead of 5th, and the cleric spellcasting is considerably better. It is noteworthy that as far as divine feats go, the split multiclasser has more uses per day to exploit, and both builds only end up turning at a 5th level ability (Pal2 contributes 0, cleric 3 = 3, and paladic = 2). This build is also missing 2 very good defensive paladin abilities, Divine Health (immune to disease) and Aura of Courage (immune to fear, radiate an aura for allies).

Pal2/Clr8
BAB: +8
HP: 10+1d10+8d8 (avg 51.5)
Spellcasting: Cleric 8 (4th level spells)
Abilities: Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day (+Cha/+2), Divine Grace, Lay on Hands (2xCha), 2 Domain Abilities (at 8th level ability), Turn Undead (as an 8th level cleric, 3+cha times/day).

This build is very similar to the one above, but is clearly a little weaker than the Divine Knight. While it has better turning and slightly better BAB, in all other respects it is weaker or equal to the Divine Knight.


Pal10
BAB: +10
HP: 10+9d10 (avg 59.5)
Spellcasting: Paladin 5th level caster (2nd level spells)
Abilities: Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 3/day (+Cha/+10), Divine Grace, Lay on Hands (10xCha), Turn Undead (as 7th level cleric), Divine Health, Aura of Courage, Special Mount (as 10th level paladin), Remove Disease 2/week.

The single-class paladin joins the fray. With pitiful spellcasting he holds an obvious combat advantage with his HP and BAB, not to mention Bless Weapon (penetrates Good DR, penetrates Magic DR). His Turn Undead is surprisingly effective compared to some of the above builds, but with not nearly as much spellcasting he may not be worthy of comparison. All these characters are facing the oath, so maybe he is.


Clr10
BAB: +7
HP: 8+9d8 (avg 48.5)
Spellcasting: Cleric 10 (5th level spells)
Abilities: 2 Domain Abilities (at 10th level ability), Turn Undead (as 10th level cleric)

As with my multiclass wizard/sorceror analysis, I would propose this character is the most powerful of all presented. Although she sports the lowest hit points and ties for the lowest BAB, she has the best Turning and more importantly the best spellcasting. From Break Enchantment to True Seeing, this build has spells that sometimes the party is just assumed to have, and none of the other builds have it. Plane Shift and Raise Dead also tend to be important situational spells to rely on a cleric, and Spell Resistance 22 makes it pretty difficult (read less than 50% chance) for the preceding characters to even affect her. And even in combat she can buff as well as the others and cast Rightous Might for +8 size bonus to Strength and +4 size bonus to Constitution and growing to large size (with weapons (!) and armor growing with her).

I think it is a better attempt reapersaurus, but the cleric class is already so much of a fighter that its difficult to mix it and create something more powerful (at least, on par with the wiz multiclass prcs). Don't get me wrong, the prc you have proposed is far more powerful than most paladin prcs around (good BAB, full spellcasting, stacking many abilities) but its designed for a cleric's spells while inherently making the cleric give up 2 spellcasting levels. Thus straight cleric (without the paladin's oath) will usually seem at least as powerful.

If you want a really broken build (on par with the wizard ones you feel are broken) you will have to add more than just class abilities (which is why I don't think EK is broken).

Technik