Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2E Remaster's Death and Dying rules are brutal.

[Jahydin]

I don't know if I like the change made to Death and Dying... seems a bit much? Curious how others feel about it.

For those unaware, the old dying rules:
If you drop to zero or below, you are Dying 1 + Wounded value.
Make a Recovery Check every round. Success reduces Dying by 1; failure increases it by 1.
Dying 0 = You're alive, but add 1 to your Wounded value.
Dying 4 = You're dead!

The new:
If you drop to zero or below, you are Dying 1 + Wounded score.
Make a Recovery Check every round. Success reduces Dying by 1; failure increases it by 1 plus your Wounded value.
Dying 0 = You're alive, but add 1 to your Wounded value.
Dying 4 = You're dead!

Nonat1s' amazing video on the subject.

 

[Reynard]

I don't know if I like the change made to Death and Dying... seems a bit much? Curious how others feel about it.

For those unaware, the old dying rules:
If you drop to zero or below, you are Dying 1 + Wounded value.
Make a Recovery Check every round. Success reduces Dying by 1; failure increases it by 1.
Dying 0 = You're alive, but add 1 to your Wounded value.
Dying 4 = You're dead!

The new:
If you drop to zero or below, you are Dying 1 + Wounded score.
Make a Recovery Check every round. Success reduces Dying by 1; failure increases it by 1 plus your Wounded value.
Dying 0 = You're alive, but add 1 to your Wounded value.
Dying 4 = You're dead!

Nonat1s' amazing video on the subject.

What is the wounded score context? How does wounded work? Did they change that?

 

[payn]

Remind me about the wound score again? Is that where if the PC is dropped below zero again they go straight to dying 2 instead? Meaning this could make getting dropped even more dangerous?

If so, I see tactical play being further enforced and/or 5 min work days increasing.

 

[Reynard]

Remind me about the wound score again? Is that where if the PC is dropped below zero again they go straight to dying 2 instead? Meaning this could make getting dropped even more dangerous?

If so, I see tactical play being further enforced and/or 5 min work days increasing.

Here's the current text from Archives of Nethys: "You have been seriously injured during a fight. Anytime you lose the dying condition, you become wounded 1 if you didn’t already have the wounded condition. If you already have the wounded condition, your wounded condition value instead increases by 1. If you gain the dying condition while wounded, increase the dying condition’s value by your wounded value. The wounded condition ends if someone successfully restores Hit Points to you with Treat Wounds, or if you are restored to full Hit Points and rest for 10 minutes."

Someone with the new books will have to answer how it is different now.

 

[payn]

The wounded condition ends if someone successfully restores Hit Points to you with Treat Wounds, or if you are restored to full Hit Points and rest for 10 minutes."

Ah, there it is the encounters based design. The new rules only seem slightly more dangerous to me. If you are in Chumaba Wumba fights you are likely screwed anyways.

 

[Reynard]

Ah, there it is the encounters based design. The new rules only seem slightly more dangerous to me. If you are in Chumaba Wumba fights you are likely screwed anyways.

I would like to see the actual text from Remastered, as it seems there is some disagreement on the internet over the OP interpretation is correct (if message boards are anything to go by).

 

[billd91]

Kind of reminds me of the update to falling rules that were briefly pushed around in 1e D&D in which the 1d6/10' fallen were added cumulatively (1d6 for first 10', +2d6 for second 10', +3d6 for 3rd 10', etc). A relatively simple rule was complicated and made a lot deadlier for no real gain in usability or game play.
The initial PF2 rule already makes yo-yo mode fights more dangerous due to increasing wound levels, does it really need to be ratcheted up?

 

[Reynard]

@Jahydin can you post the actual text? I am curious how it reads.

 

[Velderan]

The wounded condition works the same in both versions. Anytime you lose the dying condition (more on that in a bit), you gain the Wounded 1 condition if you didn't have it yet. Otherwise, add 1 to your wounded condition level. The wounded condition doesn't lower until you're out of combat, at least that I'm aware of.

Both versions work the same for the dying condition in that reaching dying 4 = death. Both allow recovery checks reach round, with some pretty key differences:

Core Rulebook
Recovery Checks
When you’re dying, at the start of each of your turns, you must attempt a flat check with a DC equal to 10 + your current dying value to see if you get better or worse. This is called a recovery check. The effects of this check are as follows.
Critical Success Your dying value is reduced by 2.
Success Your dying value is reduced by 1.
Failure Your dying value increases by 1.
Critical Failure Your dying value increases by 2.

Player Core
Recovery Checks
While you’re dying, attempt a recovery check at the start of each of your turns. This is a flat check with a DC equal to 10 + your current dying value to see if you get better or worse.
Critical Success Your dying value is reduced by 2.
Success Your dying value is reduced by 1.
Failure Your dying value increases by 1 (plus your wounded value, if any).
Critical Failure Your dying value increases by 2 (plus your wounded value, if any).

Both versions have you add 2 to your dying value if you take damage from a critical hit while rolling recovery checks or 1 if you take damage from a regular hit. Both versions note to add your wounded value to that number.

 

[Reynard]

The wounded condition works the same in both versions. Anytime you lose the dying condition (more on that in a bit), you gain the Wounded 1 condition if you didn't have it yet. Otherwise, add 1 to your wounded condition level. The wounded condition doesn't lower until you're out of combat, at least that I'm aware of.

Both versions work the same for the dying condition in that reaching dying 4 = death. Both allow recovery checks reach round, with some pretty key differences:

Core Rulebook
Recovery Checks
When you’re dying, at the start of each of your turns, you
must attempt a flat check with a DC equal to 10 + your
current dying value to see if you get better or worse. This
is called a recovery check. The effects of this check are
as follows.
Critical Success Your dying value is reduced by 2.
Success Your dying value is reduced by 1.
Failure Your dying value increases by 1.
Critical Failure Your dying value increases by 2.

Player Core
Recovery Checks
While you’re dying, attempt a recovery check at the start
of each of your turns. This is a flat check with a DC
equal to 10 + your current dying value to see if you get
better or worse.
Critical Success Your dying value is reduced by 2.
Success Your dying value is reduced by 1.
Failure Your dying value increases by 1 (plus your wounded
value, if any).
Critical Failure Your dying value increases by 2 (plus your
wounded value, if any).

Both versions have you add 2 to your dying value if you take damage from a critical hit while rolling recovery checks or 1 if you take damage from a regular hit. Both versions note to add your wounded value to that number.

Can you paste the text on the wounded condition from the Player Core, please.