Paladin balanced without RP/alignment restrictions?

[Quasqueton]

I think the paladin is balaced mechanically with the other classes without the alignment and code restrictions. With the alignment and code restrictions, I think the paladin should have a little something extra to make everyone want a paladin in the party (not necessarily to make everyone want to play a paladin).

Everyone wants a cleric in the party because of what clerics can do for everyone else -- healing spells, buffing spells, etc.

Even a bard gives a benefit to the whole party -- inspire courage, inspire competence, healing spells, etc.

I wish the paladin had something beyond just the aura of courage (which doesn't come till 3rd level) to support his comrades that made everyone want a paladin in the party. Something that would make even CN rogues consider controlling themselves so they could have a paladin in the party. The aura of courage is just too limited in use. The old protection from evil 10' radius aura in previous editions was definitely a boon that made a paladin a first-round draft pick for parties.

And the mount thing is kind of odd. Suddently, at 5th level the paladin nearly doubles in melee capability based on summoning his mount. And if the paladin is not built as a mounted fighter, the whole horse thing feels out of place.

I've played a mid-level paladin (8-9th level), and am currently playing a low-level paladin (1st-2nd level). A fighter is better at fighting. A cleric is better at the divine stuff (spells and turning undead). And often a party sees a paladin's code as an albatross around *their* neck as well as the paladin's.

I love paladins, both as a Player and a DM. But they need a little something to make most non-paladins like having one around, and worth "putting up" with the their alignment and code.

Quasqueton

 

[Longbow]

Paladins without the code and the alignment are perfectly balanced. IMHO on the mid to higher levels they get a little boring because they get nothing new. A few spells and that´s it. Smites, scaling of Lay on Hands and Smite Evil and the horse are OK but I´d like something new once in a while (see Ranger for example).

 

[Psiblade]

Paladins tend not to be as good in dealing damage as barbarians and fighters. More diverse stats(less strength) and fewer feats will equal less damage output. Divine might is nice help for damage, but power attack is much better. Fighters and Barbarians will hit more with power attack because of str bonuses being better. Paladins excel in avoiding damage. Great saves and Great AC equal less damage over time. Even better they can actually heal themselves. Paladins make excellent if boring tanks. Uniform abilities equal less variation over the long haul.

-Psiblade

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Just to be the contrarian...

I chose to play a Paladin in which the roleplaying restrictions are actually benefits. Please do not take them away!

You get a good situational modifier to your Diplomacy roll when you can look your DM in the eye and say, "The Paladin honestly believes this bargain would be in the NPC's interest. Not only that, I bet the NPC understands the paladin believes so." If you roll well, there is virtually no way the NPC can turn you down (unless the DM can cook up an ingeniously clever counteroffer on the spot).

The NPC bossman may like the Bard or Rogue face man, but that does not mean he would believe for a moment either would keep their end of a deal. The paladin is a better bet.

This style of paladin is not for everyone, though.

 

[Treebore]

A fighter is a better fighter than a paladin. Don't believe it? Create a fighter and Paladin with same AC and HP and level. See who stays standing in a head to head fight in 10 matches. The fighter 7 out of ten. Lucky rolls made the difference in the other 3 matches. Feats make a huge difference. Fighters have them, paladins don't.

Paladins are like PrC's, they are very good in specific situations, take them out of their comfort zone and they start to get trashed. In comparison to the fighter anyways. Didn't do one with a Barbarian.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Indeed. To be effective, a fighter has to make wise use of his feats. A fighter could easily be tripping, disarming, and breaking weapons, while a paladin is lucky to be doing any one of those things effectively. It really sucks when a clever fighter is keeping you from getting full attacks.

Oh, and regarding people automatically trusting paladins... First of all, paladins don't wear a sign around their neck saying "I am a paladin." Second, when they inform people they are a paladin and their word is inviolate, the people have no way of knowing if this is true. A good diplomacy check might get around that though. Thirdly, paladins can't lie, but they can be mistaken. A clever enemy might feed a paladin misinformation, knowing that everybody will believe the infallible paladin.

Also, my campaign world is full of corrupt, lawful evil governments. Order is maintained reasonably well, but those in power are often in power for their own benefit. Paladins are not greeted particularly warmly in these areas, especially if they seem to be wandering the countryside enforcing some sort of vigilante justice. People in such positions are too well established for a lone paladin to "correct" the situation, so they're stuck being as undercover as a criminal might be in a Good society.

No matter how blessed you are, you can't trust everybody in the world will welcome you with open arms, even if they're not evil

 

[Sejs]

Paladin vs Fighter isn't quite a balanced comparison given that one has supernatural abilities and magic where the other has feats. Apples and Oranges.

Comparing Paladin vs Ranger would be more on level, I'd say.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

My only problem with taking away the alignment restrictions is that I am not sure about free multiclassing. Is a bard/paladin broken? Is a barbarian/paladin? Druid/paladin? Not sure.

Same goes with monks, bards, barbarians, and druids. I don't know if WotC balanced the classes with the intent that alignment restrictions would keep certain class combinations invalid.

 

[Celtavian]

re

A fighter is a better fighter than a paladin. Don't believe it? Create a fighter and Paladin with same AC and HP and level. See who stays standing in a head to head fight in 10 matches. The fighter 7 out of ten. Lucky rolls made the difference in the other 3 matches. Feats make a huge difference. Fighters have them, paladins don't.

Paladins are like PrC's, they are very good in specific situations, take them out of their comfort zone and they start to get trashed. In comparison to the fighter anyways. Didn't do one with a Barbarian.

If the Paladin could stand toe to toe with a fighter, then the Paladin class would really be overpowered. Why? take taht same fighter, and put him in a situation where he has to make a Will save versus fear and 7 out of ten times he is probably running for his mama. He takes more damage from energy attacks because his reflex save is worse than a Paladins. He is charmed and dominated more often, because his Will save is worse. He needs healing more often from the cleric because he can't heal himself even during downtime.

A Paladin that can fight as well as a fIghter would be one broken, overpowered class.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Oh, and regarding people automatically trusting paladins... First of all, paladins don't wear a sign around their neck saying "I am a paladin." Second, when they inform people they are a paladin and their word is inviolate, the people have no way of knowing if this is true. A good diplomacy check might get around that though. Thirdly, paladins can't lie, but they can be mistaken. A clever enemy might feed a paladin misinformation, knowing that everybody will believe the infallible paladin.

Of course. But that is a huge step up from dealing with a Rogue or Bard who could easily be mistaken AND outright lying AND will not follow through on the deal when the whim strikes them.

The paladin is a better prospect for striking the bargain, even if you are evil. Whether you know you are dealing with a paladin or not depends on the world. Sounds like in your world that is not information one should let out. But there is no real way around Marked For Death By The Powers That Be being anything but a significant disadvantage.