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<blockquote data-quote="Justice and Rule" data-source="post: 8434002" data-attributes="member: 6778210"><p>I don't believe I denied that. In fact, I literally stated that being the case.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, which is why we are here.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I mean, you reference Jessica Price, right? When she made her comments about the video game industry, no one went to her defense, either. And yet, are we going to say she was a liar for <em>that </em>and not here?</p><p></p><p>It's almost like Hasbro is a big corporation that has much more power over ruining your career than Paizo. I'll point out that no one denied these issues, and that in both the article and in the MTG stuff they say similar things to different degrees. That people aren't speaking out at Wizards is probably because they are a much larger, much more powerful organization as the undisputed industry leader.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Depersonalizing the complaints doesn't mean that they aren't valid or that they aren't real. Zak S. wasn't just a "banned third party playtester", he was a well-known harrasser in the RPG community at that point, and he was thanked <em>by name</em> for his contributions to 5E. This was known when it happened, and only got changed when one of his main defenders finally admitted that he had done the same to her as he did to other women. Including him in the first place was problematic, thanking him was worse, and finally taking his name out wasn't really a win as much as minimizing what was already a terrible decision.</p><p></p><p>Similarly trying to write off the microaggressions that seem to be rife within the MTG Community that go unaddressed by Wizards feels weird, given that these are things that are visible to us compared to someone just telling us. The distasteful jokes and other such things are things you may not notice, but minority players <em>do</em>. I'm reminded of <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tKsYkdEEfU9u-_27ZvVWu8Wkm2bThe3lfov24f2brjM/edit?usp=drivesdk" target="_blank">Lawrence Harmon's take</a>, where he shows a player pointing out the problematic nature of a storyline getting dogpiled by fans. You keep saying "Third party", but it's up to Wizards to actually set tone.</p><p></p><p>And Zaiem Beg's list of things that he's seen, even if vague, are pretty damning. Orion directly references him in their statement. Again, Zaiem is intentionally vague because he doesn't want people to be blacklisted, but at the same time wants to see change. With a large corporation who controls much more of the market, it becomes far more difficult to speak out.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I would expect them not to react at all because they likely still desire to do some work there and Hasbro blacklisting them would have a larger effect. Again, this is where incredibly repressive social media policies come into place: if you don't toe the line even when you're not working, you'll be casually shadowbanned. That's why that whole part of that document brought it up: it's meant to stifle this sort of thing before it happens. That it broke through for Paizo doesn't mean it's not happening at Wizards.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Not all 940+ employees might see it as a problem. Part of it is perspective, and when you isolate minority voices, people don't get to see the other side of it. Most probably don't experience it at all.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ex-employees don't mean that they don't intend to work at all with Wizards anymore. Being permanently shadowbanned from the biggest shop in the industry and will probably carry over to Hasbro as well (who are starting to get RPG releases for their other properties) carries more weight than Paizo. You keep talking about how big Wizards is and this wouldn't work</p><p></p><p>Iif you want to justify it, fine. But understand that it has a chilling effect. When you're bigger, you can absolutely do that sort of thing.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not <em>suggesting</em>, I'm pointing to what others have said about them and even what that article hints at. You're the one <em>denying </em>what others have written about. In the Wired article they outright reference Orion's statement and those who make statements about WOTC make oblique references to how white male it is and that it's a "boys' club". I feel like those words carry pretty obvious implications, and give credence to what people like Zaiem and Orion said. Given that, I don't see why we should not assume that WOTC is similarly problematic, but better able to keep a lid on it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Justice and Rule, post: 8434002, member: 6778210"] I don't believe I denied that. In fact, I literally stated that being the case. Yes, which is why we are here. I mean, you reference Jessica Price, right? When she made her comments about the video game industry, no one went to her defense, either. And yet, are we going to say she was a liar for [I]that [/I]and not here? It's almost like Hasbro is a big corporation that has much more power over ruining your career than Paizo. I'll point out that no one denied these issues, and that in both the article and in the MTG stuff they say similar things to different degrees. That people aren't speaking out at Wizards is probably because they are a much larger, much more powerful organization as the undisputed industry leader. Depersonalizing the complaints doesn't mean that they aren't valid or that they aren't real. Zak S. wasn't just a "banned third party playtester", he was a well-known harrasser in the RPG community at that point, and he was thanked [I]by name[/I] for his contributions to 5E. This was known when it happened, and only got changed when one of his main defenders finally admitted that he had done the same to her as he did to other women. Including him in the first place was problematic, thanking him was worse, and finally taking his name out wasn't really a win as much as minimizing what was already a terrible decision. Similarly trying to write off the microaggressions that seem to be rife within the MTG Community that go unaddressed by Wizards feels weird, given that these are things that are visible to us compared to someone just telling us. The distasteful jokes and other such things are things you may not notice, but minority players [I]do[/I]. I'm reminded of [URL='https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tKsYkdEEfU9u-_27ZvVWu8Wkm2bThe3lfov24f2brjM/edit?usp=drivesdk']Lawrence Harmon's take[/URL], where he shows a player pointing out the problematic nature of a storyline getting dogpiled by fans. You keep saying "Third party", but it's up to Wizards to actually set tone. And Zaiem Beg's list of things that he's seen, even if vague, are pretty damning. Orion directly references him in their statement. Again, Zaiem is intentionally vague because he doesn't want people to be blacklisted, but at the same time wants to see change. With a large corporation who controls much more of the market, it becomes far more difficult to speak out. I would expect them not to react at all because they likely still desire to do some work there and Hasbro blacklisting them would have a larger effect. Again, this is where incredibly repressive social media policies come into place: if you don't toe the line even when you're not working, you'll be casually shadowbanned. That's why that whole part of that document brought it up: it's meant to stifle this sort of thing before it happens. That it broke through for Paizo doesn't mean it's not happening at Wizards. Not all 940+ employees might see it as a problem. Part of it is perspective, and when you isolate minority voices, people don't get to see the other side of it. Most probably don't experience it at all. Ex-employees don't mean that they don't intend to work at all with Wizards anymore. Being permanently shadowbanned from the biggest shop in the industry and will probably carry over to Hasbro as well (who are starting to get RPG releases for their other properties) carries more weight than Paizo. You keep talking about how big Wizards is and this wouldn't work Iif you want to justify it, fine. But understand that it has a chilling effect. When you're bigger, you can absolutely do that sort of thing. I'm not [I]suggesting[/I], I'm pointing to what others have said about them and even what that article hints at. You're the one [I]denying [/I]what others have written about. In the Wired article they outright reference Orion's statement and those who make statements about WOTC make oblique references to how white male it is and that it's a "boys' club". I feel like those words carry pretty obvious implications, and give credence to what people like Zaiem and Orion said. Given that, I don't see why we should not assume that WOTC is similarly problematic, but better able to keep a lid on it. [/QUOTE]
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