D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Gammadoodler]

It's more that High level Mundanes would squish High level Arcanes, Divines, Primals, Psionics whatever if they are not explicitly stated as being also a martial.

As well making skill challenges High level Mundanes would find challenging would be Impossible for nonMundanes or Mundanes under other paths.

That's bad gameplay for a team game.

Lady Shiva of the DC universe terrifies human, metahumanz and aliens alike. And she's only a regular u augmented human lady.u

But if Lady Shiva attacks you with a sword, you one of 4 things

• Are one of the maybe 10 people who can block her attack
• Are immune to sword attacks
• Are uncatchable or untargettable
• ARE DEAD

That's bad gameplay for what D&D. High level Mundanes in media are "Dodge or Die", "DC 20 skill check or die", or "Make DC 30 skill check or Suck" over and over and over.

That's before you needing to make rules and ruling for all the untold actions they have via training.

I'm not sure I understand the logic that supports this set of conclusions.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Not sure how much can actually be done about this ultimately. Magic let's you do things not-magic doesn't. At a certain point, that's going to be a potential issue for not-magic, and in my opinion the most reasonable way to deal with this is to have a point in PC development where, if you go beyond, not-magic becomes magic.

Magic lets you do the things the game says magic can do. Not-magic lets you do the things the game says not-magic can do.

The issue is solely in the differences in what the game allows for each.

 

[Remathilis]

Magic lets you do the things the game says magic can do. Not-magic lets you do the things the game says not-magic can do.

The issue is solely in the differences in what the game allows for each.

I'm pretty sure that ship has sailed though.

It would be nice if magic could not pick a lock or find a trap. If it couldn't scale a wall with automatic success. If it couldn't grant extra attacks or turn you into an animal stronger than your fighter. Then not-magic could have its place.

But it does. And people will scream bloody murder if you take that away now. So if magic can do everything, the not-magic must accept it can't compete with magic and either join them or be relegated to second class.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I'm pretty sure that ship has sailed though.

It would be nice if magic could not pick a lock or find a trap. If it couldn't scale a wall with automatic success. If it couldn't grant extra attacks or turn you into an animal stronger than your fighter. Then not-magic could have its place.

But it does. And people will scream bloody murder if you take that away now. So if magic can do everything, the not-magic must accept it can't compete with magic and either join them or be relegated to second class.

It works at both ends of the power spectrum. And it works for both magic and non-magic.

The point is that there is no narratively essential hierarchy of magical and non-magical capabilities.

It's all just stuff the game allows for. And they could be comparably potent at both the high and the low ends. IMO, they should be.

 

[Vaalingrade]

But it does. And people will scream bloody murder if you take that away now.

Let them scream.

It's gotta happen some time for the good of the game, time to rip the bandaid off.

Should have left it off the first time.

 

[SkidAce]

Psst...

It's like half the D&D community.

I dont feel that its that many...but your experience may vary.

 

[SkidAce]

I'm pretty sure that ship has sailed though.

It would be nice if magic could not pick a lock or find a trap. If it couldn't scale a wall with automatic success. If it couldn't grant extra attacks or turn you into an animal stronger than your fighter. Then not-magic could have its place.

But it does. And people will scream bloody murder if you take that away now. So if magic can do everything, the not-magic must accept it can't compete with magic and either join them or be relegated to second class.

I'm not a "scream bloody murder" person. But I do see their point. Magic (in myth and literature, and movies, etc.) does things and solves things like wall climbing, lock picking etc.

Its magic. Of course the wizard would develop a spell to open locks, or spider climb etc. Why wouldnt they? But that viewpoint is a result of what would happen if magic was real, and we are playing a game where its supossed to be fun for all, no matter what class they chose.

I think its a table thing/style. We dont have fighter valets for the wizard, because they are to busy bashing skulls. We play slightly old school, so the fighter does have their own magic items to help solve things. (/tangent..ahh the glory days when the fighter got boots of flying, had improved invis cast on them, and drank a potion of haste, it was a flying invis helicopter of doom)

Its also weird...wizards can cast wish, but they cant research or create a spell to open locks because...?

BL: I'm not disparaging anyone's view; its a hard thing from both sides, and its been debated for many a year.

 

[James Gasik]

I'm not a "scream bloody murder" person. But I do see their point. Magic (in myth and literature, and movies, etc.) does things and solves things like wall climbing, lock picking etc.

Its magic. Of course the wizard would develop a spell to open locks, or spider climb etc. Why wouldnt they? But that viewpoint is a result of what would happen if magic was real, and we are playing a game where its supossed to be fun for all, no matter what class they chose.

I think its a table thing/style. We dont have fighter valets for the wizard, because they are to busy bashing skulls. We play slightly old school, so the fighter does have their own magic items to help solve things. (/tangent..ahh the glory days when the fighter got boots of flying, had improved invis cast on them, and drank a potion of haste, it was a flying invis helicopter of doom)

Its also weird...wizards can cast wish, but they cant research or create a spell to open locks because...?

BL: I'm not disparaging anyone's view; its a hard thing from both sides, and its been debated for many a year.

I also miss the days when I could buff the heck out of my martial beatstick.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'm pretty sure that ship has sailed though.

It would be nice if magic could not pick a lock or find a trap. If it couldn't scale a wall with automatic success. If it couldn't grant extra attacks or turn you into an animal stronger than your fighter. Then not-magic could have its place.

But it does. And people will scream bloody murder if you take that away now. So if magic can do everything, the not-magic must accept it can't compete with magic and either join them or be relegated to second class.

WotC 5e will never be the game you're looking for there. But there are other versions of D&D that have made sone headway in the "what can magic really do?" area. You just have to let the official game go and be creative.

 

[Minigiant]

I'm not sure I understand the logic that supports this set of conclusions.

Both in real life and story

A person who trains to fight would beat up quickly a person who is not trained to fight.

A person who dedicates their life to fight will beat up a person who merely trains to fight occasionally.

Logic dictates a person who spends their majority of their day training to fight (an orc berserker) would instantly squish any being that does not train to fight despite their experience level (an apprentice wizard all the way to an Archmage)

But that's not fun.

A device That confounds a master spy or a thieves yield leader would be impossible for a person who has no lock picking or device disabling experience.

But that's not fun.

Mundane characters who are high level would be experts at things that would be impossible for non-specialists to even attempt to succeed with. Everyone else would require a cheat, usually magic, to even attempt or bypass the things that would challenge or be presented by a high level mundane character.