Noob questions 1: Ability scores

[Lojaan]

Howdy folks, I used to play 3rd Ed, then went to 4th Ed (and really enjoyed it), and now i am being lured over to Pathfinder, which has basically been described to me as 'like 3.5 but good'.

I do like the look of PF, but I must say after messing about in 4ed some parts are a bit of a shock. These are the bits I want to run through with you to make sure I've got them ok. Would be embarrassing if I'd just you know... read the book wrong.

1. Ability scores. I've always hated 'rolling' ability scores. Other people like it. That's ok. PF goes for the 15 point point buy system which is ok but... every ability score is important! I had become so spoilt by 4ed where you only need two and can dump the rest. How does it work back in a system where so many stats are important? In 4ed you kinda *need* you main stat to be 18. In PF is there a minimum recommended stat? Like, is your character broken if their highest stat is 15?

3. how does this affect classes like bard, monk and druid. Do these classes still put a strain on ability scores as they need so many to be high?

2. Every 4 levels you get an ability point. The book doesn't explain this and I can't remember back to 3ed. That's one ability point every 4 lvls, yeah?

That's just to start with. Will be back soon to ask some questions about multiclassing.

 

[Laptopdude]

If 3.5 took 3.0 and fixed a bunch of rules and abilities, then Pathfinder took 3.5, added alot of character options to the core rules, then simplified it. I have not played 4ed, so unfortunately I can't make any comparisons to it.

Personally, I've found Pathfinder to be similar to 3/3.5 in many respects, the most notable exception that you no longer HAVE to take a prestige class to be effective at higher levels.

As a player, I completely understand wanting to have all 6 ability scores as high as physically possible. However, I've found that it's more fun to play a character with flaws. If your character is perfect, where's the challenge in combat/diplomacy/etc? Also, as a DM, I love the diversity that different skill sets bring to a party. One player's weakness is another player's chance to shine. I think every character should have at least one ability score that's under a 10.

I'd say that having more than two stats above 15 (or having more than one 18) usually results in a VERY powerful character. On the other hand, I do think that a 15 point buy is rather limiting; if I used the point buy system (which I do not; I prefer rolling) I would probably do 25. I don't think it's possible to get broken ability scores via point buy unless you do something way up there like 40 points, which is the entire point of point buy (pardon the pun).

I would say your character is definitely not broken if your highest stat is 15. As for minimum scores, when using point-buy that is really a moot point. When rolling dice, if your total bonus is less than 0, you can reroll your entire stat-block (personally I house rule that you can reroll if your total bonus is less than +5).

Yes, this does limit certain classes just as it did in past editions. In most cases, this is intentional so as to provide greater balance for the game. Your only options are racial adjustments, spells, or magic items. Again, I don't think a character with all 18s would be fun for the players or the DM, despite how much you "need" high scores to be effective.

I'm pretty sure it's mentioned once in some obscure place...but I know for a fact that you are correct. You get 1 ability point to put in any ability score at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level. And yes, this is the same as in 3/3.5 edition.

Hope some of that helps,
--Laptopdude--

 

[Glade Riven]

- CON is importaint to any class, because it adds to Hit Points.
- INT is the only other stat that adds something every level (skill points).
- Spellcasters have a primary Ability (INT, WIS, or CHA) needed for spellcasting. Usually, this is best to have the highest for that character because it effects everything for your magic (highest spell level known, number of spells, etc).
- Most classes have two stats that they need to be decent in, maybe 3. Some would argue the Monk needs 4, but there are builds to get around that. This is determined by your class abilities and the role they play.
- Pathfinder still allows you to roll, or you can take the elite array. So there are options.

 

[Lojaan]

Thanks heaps guys.

One final question on ability scores: would you say there's a minimum number you'd need for a primary stat for the character to still be 'effective'? Ie, still be able to hit the bad guys at any level?

In 4ed you could get away with a 16 in a primary stat - but only just.

Would a fighter with 16 str, a rogue with 16 dex, or a wizard with 16 int still be effective? Or would it be pushing it? Or, with the fact that nearly all ability scores are important, would these characters even be preferable as they could be stronger in other areas?

Main reason I'm asking is after a quick refresh of the 3.5 rule system, I remembered how easy it is to make underpowered characters. Underpowered characters are not fun. I want to be able to aid my players to make characters that they can enjoy.

Also as one of the players wants to play a bard, I want to be able to advise on this so they don't inadvertently create a character that they quickly despair of due to its inability to do anything.

 

[SkredlitheOgre]

For my Pathfinder group (I'm the DM and we've been playing about three months, give or take), I told them to use the "Heroic" die rolling option, which is roll 4d6 and drop the lowest die. So if you roll 4d6 and get a 6, 5, 2, 1, you drop the one and your ability score is 13 and then I let them decide which score they wanted for which ability. It helps at lower levels if you put a higher score for Constitution, since it effects HP. If that's your thing. As far as point buy goes, I've never used it in D&D/Pathfinder. I prefer the luck of the roll.

As for your second point, none of those classes "need" to have all high ability scores. The way you line up your ability scores helps determine how your play the character. Take the druid, for example. If he ended up with a high Wisdom instead of a high Constitution, he may focus more on spellcasting than combat. That doesn't "break" the character, it simply changes how that character is played. In my group, our bard has a Strength of 10, a Dex of 9, a Con of 12 (I think), Int of 9, Wis of 10 (or 11) and a Charisma of 18. Due to the fact that the player is a good role player, that character isn't broken. He's a support character and he's the face of the party and he's really good at it. Not every character needs to be a front line fighter. That's what Fighters, Barbarians, and Paladins are for.

One of our rogues, on the other hand, has a high Dex (17) and Intelligence (18) but low Strength, average Constitution, average Wisdom, and below average Charisma (8, I think). Again, because the player is a good role player, the character isn't broken. He's handy in a fight, due to sneak attack/flanking and Weapon Finesse, but he's hardly going to stand toe-to-toe with anybody. He doesn't have to. That's what the Fighter is for.

Ultimately, yeah, you want to have all high ability scores, but NOT having high ability scores doesn't "ruin" a character. It makes them better by making them different.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

A spellcaster needs to keep his spellcasting ability score maxed out or they're not even capable of casting their higher-level spells.

Aside from spellcasters, high ability scores are nice but not necessary.

 

[Lojaan]

Awesome. Thanks heaps guys

 

[Mojo_Rat]

for ability scores most people these days use point buy. we started for our last 3.5 session and have never used dice rolls for pathfinder. learning where and how high to place your stats is a bit of personal experience and preference. but you can get away with 14 s and 16s if you want them.


my monk currently playing at lvl 9 started as 16 14 14 10 14 10 after race. with gear the lvl 4 and 8 stat adjustment 18 str 18 dex. I have no problems hitting things and last session put the mini boss the gm has intended to run away I'n a choke hold he never got out of.

 

[billd91]

Thanks heaps guys.

One final question on ability scores: would you say there's a minimum number you'd need for a primary stat for the character to still be 'effective'? Ie, still be able to hit the bad guys at any level?

In 4ed you could get away with a 16 in a primary stat - but only just.

Would a fighter with 16 str, a rogue with 16 dex, or a wizard with 16 int still be effective? Or would it be pushing it? Or, with the fact that nearly all ability scores are important, would these characters even be preferable as they could be stronger in other areas?

The minimum stat is the one in which you feel comfortable with your character's capacity. Maybe that's a 16, maybe you want to set a higher standard for certain areas of performance. But, thanks to stat boosting items, stat gains every 4 levels, and other buffs, there are several ways to get a stat boosted if you're feeling a bit low.