D&D 5E Next fiddly question on flanking

[Archade]

Hi all,

We had an interesting question come up in our game last night, and I'm curious what people thought.

We squared off against some shadows, and one of the PCs had the misfortune to not have a magical sword. So, he couldn't hurt the critters, so he started offering a flank.

Can someone who doesn't offer any chance of harming an opponent offer a flank?

This question could also be asked of someone who has a weapon that can't possibly affect a creature due to its' DR as well, like a weak character attacking a skeleton with a dagger.

Opinions? SRD quotes? Anyone?

 

[Nonlethal Force]

I would assume the answer is yes. To offer a bonus to another person all you have to do occupy space and threaten.

"When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent's opposite borde or opposite corner.

To threaten, one must:

threaten: To be able to attack in melee without moving from your current space.

I would argue that even if the player doesn't have an ability to hit something they still threaten - at least by the spirit of the rules. The bad guy doesn't know which weapons can hit him or not ...

Of course, there may be a rule specifically covering this and if so, I reserve the right to correct my opinion based on a more specific rule.

The obvious exception to this is a person attacking with a weapon that specifically does not threaten - like an unarmed strike for someone without the feat or who is a monk...

 

[darthkilmor]

Opinion: If he can't Hit it then he doesnt flank and I'd say can't aid another.

The skeleton DR Q is different though, he can still Hit the creature, he's just not Likely to do dmg( maybe he crits and sneaks a point or two in though).

 

[Hypersmurf]

Can someone who doesn't offer any chance of harming an opponent offer a flank?

By the rules, absolutely, as long as he threatens the square.

In Rules of the Game - Sneak Attacks Part 4, Skip Williams suggests a house rule, if this bothers you:

A Totally Unofficial Rule for Dealing with Foes Trying to Flank You

Jonathan Tweet (co-designer of the D&D 3rd edition game) and I have had many opportunities to ponder the tactical aspects of flanking and what you might be able to do about it if you find yourself flanked. After one extended discussion not long ago, Jonathan proposed the basics of the following rule, and I present it here, with some tweaks:

You can disregard attacks from an opponent flanking you. When you do, that opponent doesn't get the +2 flanking bonus when attacking you and that opponent does not provide a flanking bonus to any of its allies. Ignoring a flanker, however, provokes an attack of opportunity from that flanker, and you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against that flanker. You do, however, continue to threaten that flanker.

If the flanker is out of attacks of opportunity, you can ignore the flanker (and deny the flanking bonus) with impunity.

If you can't see (or locate) the flanker, you disregard the flanker by default, and you provoke the attack of opportunity.

You must make the decision to disregard a flanker as soon as the foe moves into a flanking position. You can change your decision as a free action on your turn. (You still must disregard a flanker you can't see.)

Designer's Notes: This rule gives certain creatures the option to ignore flankers when they don't pose any real danger to them. Lycanthropes facing foes that aren't armed with silver weapons, as well as characters with very high Armor Classes facing much weaker foes, can soften the effects of being surrounded. Many other creatures can use the rule to limit sneak attacks against them, but at the risk of extra attacks of opportunity from other foes. This rule also means that you often cannot provide a flanking bonus to your allies if you're out of attacks of opportunity (though foes may have a hard time determining exactly when that situation occurs).

-Hyp.

 

[Archade]

It doesn't bother me that they flank - it just came up as an interesting question. After all, does the flanked creature *know* that someone can't hurt it? Do you want to open that can of worms? It was a philosophical discussion, rather than a rule argument.

Thanks, though!

 

[werk]

Yes, all you need to flank is to threaten them.

You don't have to be able to damage the foe to threaten. You can always trip, grapple, bullrush, sunder, etc...lots of stuff you can do that doesn't outright damage them but they'd be well served to consider you a threat.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

By the rules, absolutely, as long as he threatens the square.

In Rules of the Game - Sneak Attacks Part 4, Skip Williams suggests a house rule, if this bothers you:

A Totally Unofficial Rule for Dealing with Foes Trying to Flank You

Jonathan Tweet (co-designer of the D&D 3rd edition game) and I have had many opportunities to ponder the tactical aspects of flanking and what you might be able to do about it if you find yourself flanked. After one extended discussion not long ago, Jonathan proposed the basics of the following rule, and I present it here, with some tweaks:

You can disregard attacks from an opponent flanking you. When you do, that opponent doesn't get the +2 flanking bonus when attacking you and that opponent does not provide a flanking bonus to any of its allies. Ignoring a flanker, however, provokes an attack of opportunity from that flanker, and you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against that flanker. You do, however, continue to threaten that flanker.

If the flanker is out of attacks of opportunity, you can ignore the flanker (and deny the flanking bonus) with impunity.

If you can't see (or locate) the flanker, you disregard the flanker by default, and you provoke the attack of opportunity.

You must make the decision to disregard a flanker as soon as the foe moves into a flanking position. You can change your decision as a free action on your turn. (You still must disregard a flanker you can't see.)

Designer's Notes: This rule gives certain creatures the option to ignore flankers when they don't pose any real danger to them. Lycanthropes facing foes that aren't armed with silver weapons, as well as characters with very high Armor Classes facing much weaker foes, can soften the effects of being surrounded. Many other creatures can use the rule to limit sneak attacks against them, but at the risk of extra attacks of opportunity from other foes. This rule also means that you often cannot provide a flanking bonus to your allies if you're out of attacks of opportunity (though foes may have a hard time determining exactly when that situation occurs).

-Hyp.

I would agree with this houserule so long as the enemy had an opportunity to know if they could be damaged. Lycanthropes, for example, can easily see if a weapon is silvered or not. But a ghost or undead than can only be hit with magical weapons may not be able to discern. Especially if the flanker is smart and knows he has no change. The flanker could merely "pull punches" so to speak and consistantly near miss forcing the undead to wonder if the weapon is dangerous or not.

But then again, now we are in the realm of houserules. As earlier stated: technically the flanking bonus applies so long as a character threatens.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yes, all you need to flank is to threaten them.

You don't have to be able to damage the foe to threaten. You can always trip, grapple, bullrush, sunder, etc...lots of stuff you can do that doesn't outright damage them but they'd be well served to consider you a threat.

Well, to be fair, you can't trip, grapple, or sunder a Shadow

-Hyp.

 

[Dracorat]

Actually, it just depends on whether the shadow reacts to him swinging his sword in the shadow's space or not. Does the shadow perceive him to be a threat? Then yes.

Does the shadow completely ignore him knowing he can't hurt it? (In which case if someone he suddenly became able to hurt the shadow, he would be striking as an invisible attacker since the shadow is ignoring him). Then he cannot offer flank.

 

[darthkilmor]

Yes, all you need to flank is to threaten them.

You don't have to be able to damage the foe to threaten. You can always trip, grapple, bullrush, sunder, etc...lots of stuff you can do that doesn't outright damage them but they'd be well served to consider you a threat.

You do all of those to an incorpereal foe how ?

Edit: Hyp beat me to it, curses for not updating before posting !