Need Help with Divination Controls

[Mordane76]

I'm developing a plot for a homebrew world. I'd like to be as non-committal as I can in this thread, because I intend to run this story on ENWorld once I've finished writing it.

The basics:

• The world has five gods: Sun, Earth, Nature, Rivers/Water, and Death.
  
• The small city the story is set in is on a river, and is a major religous center for the Lord of Rivers. By a pact with the family of high priests of this god, the eldest male member of the family is invested with a small portion of the essence of the Lord of Rivers. This is not an openly known fact - it is a secret entrusted to the clergy of the Lord of Rivers, but not the laymen of the church or to outsiders.
  
• At the time of the story, there are only two male members of this family: the high priest, and his infant son. Someone has murdered the high priest, and he cannot be brought back to life - the Lord of Death is a cruel, tyrannical god, and will not allow the resurrection of the faithful of other gods without some form of compensation. In this case, he has flatly denied any request to allow the high priest to be restored to life.
  
• As the high priest is dead, and there does not appear to be a way to return him to life, the spark of divinity passes to the infant son. However, the infant is very young, and has not even developed the ability to walk or speak, let alone manage a religion. I've stretched the rules of Divine Rank a little, and the child does not receive the benefits that would allow him to speak and understand any language, or benefits that would make him more intelligent than a child his age. Thus, control of the church has temporarily passed to the most powerful cleric other than the high priest.
  
• The murderer is still at large.
  
• The church has reason to believe that the murder was motivated by knowledge of this spark of divinity and how it passes, and thus fears that the infant may be in danger.

If this sounds like another story that has already been published, I apologize up front - I don't buy, or even generally read, published adventurers, and no infringement on anyone's material is intended, or even presently known about.


The story will revolve around finding the murderer, uncovering his reasons, and possibly thwarting whatever/whomever may have put the murderer onto the high priest in the first place.


How can I control divinations within the 3.5E environment such that this isn't simply a case of "Cast me an X, Y, and Q, and I'll have all the answers I'll need?" I'm interested in ways that don't involve an draconian amount of DM fiat - stuff that works mostly with the rules as written. Also, how can I make sure that there is a reason that the services of adventurers (the PCs) would be procured to solve this mystery instead of the resources of the church, who obviously would have access to the said divinations above?

 

[Scotley]

First let's address some specific spells.

Discern Location—Must have seen the creature or have something that belonged to it. If no one saw the crime and no possessions were left behind this spell will not help.

Find the Path—Useless unless the Priest’s know where the killer or a clue can be found.

True seeing—Only a concern if the killer is still in the area and hidden using illusion, polymorph or hiding in a secret room, etc.

Commune—This one could be tricky if the players are good at 20 questions. This is where you may have to be a bit heavy handed. Perhaps this power is available only to the barer of the divine spark. That would be logical. Another take is that church has an oracle that is the keeper of this power and either it is only available at certain times or perhaps the God is angry at his followers for letting his chosen be slain and is giving them the silent treatment. Maybe the deity simply isn’t omniscient and doesn’t have the answers to give—a possibility suggested in the spells description. With a little thought I think you can overcome this one without frustrating the players too much.

Discern Lies—Only a problem if the killer or an accomplice is still around and suspect. It is unlikely that they would question everyone in the temple under this spell.

Zone of Truth—As Discern Lies, unless someone who knows something is available for questioning and they are questioning everyone this is not a concern.

Augury—Heavy use of the spell might help the investigators avoid following some useless leads and help them stay on the right track, but it shouldn’t ruin the mystery.

Scrying/Greater Scrying—again these spells are of little use without some physical evidence left behind or a suspect that is known to the caster. The bad guy should have a strong will save if they are likely to figure out who it is early on.

Minor detection spells (Detect evil, detect magic, detect invisible, etc.)—These are again unlikely to be a problem unless the killer is still readily available for the investigators to try their spells on. Some magic items can limit the accuracy of these spells and should be available to the bad guys.

Are there other spells in particular that you are concerned about? I just skimmed the SRD and these are the ones that jumped out at me as potential problems.

Next, since I've largely addressed the divinations lets ponder how the party gets involved.

The most obvious answer is that they are the resources of the church, clerics, paladins, monks, maybe even druids or rangers and otherwise faithful who have some experience with this sort of thing. Just because the other clerics are higher level doesn't mean that they are particularly good at solving mysteries or using divination spells to this sort of effect. Not all clerics are adventurers at heart. Other party members can be friends of those with a direct tie to the church. Or they could owe the church some service for past help such as healing or raising a relative from the dead or givin the nature of the deity preventing a flood or ending a drought.

The next option is that the church is trying to keep this disaster a secret for the time being. The players are either trusted or the church has some hold over them that ensures they won't talk. Maybe they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time and thus know about the high priest's murder and thus are enlisted to help solve the crime rather than tell someone else who doesn't already know. Maybe some of the party members were on guard at the time of the murder or happened to overhear someone discussing it.

Finally, and this one is tricky, make the players somehow at fault. Then make them solve the mystery to atone. I once tricked the party into helping a thief of a powerful artifact escape the rightful authorities. Then they were tried and sentenced to solve the crime under a Geas. I knew the players well and was pretty sure I could get them to fall for it and they did, but it will be difficult and might be too much of a gamble with an online group you don't really know, especially if one of them is reading this right now.

You don't have to take divination completely out of it. The church may have already done some divining and the initial clues you give the party could come from that, or if they get way off track later you might want to give them a nudge back in the right direction with some information the church has gleaned from the latest round of spells. This might make it feel more believable and less like you are taking DM's fiat with the spells.

Anyway, hope this helps. It sounds like an intersting plot. I don't think its been done before in a published adventure, but there is a lot of stuff out there. Good luck!

 

[Hjorimir]

One way to handle this kind of thing is that the secular powers that be require evidence and proof past "because we cast a spell and it told us so" that can normally plague this kind of adventure. There could be a lot of reasons for this. Within my campaign, there is a history of spellcaster charlatans that have manipulated the aristocracy by lying on the results of divination spells. So now such things are generally not trusted. Evidence, proof, witnesses... these are the things that they want to see.

I'm not sure if that works for your particular campaign, but it may help.

 

[Mordane76]

Are there other spells in particular that you are concerned about? I just skimmed the SRD and these are the ones that jumped out at me as potential problems.

Actually, yes - my readings through Legend Lore have given me some cause for concern, as it appears you can (although with a great expenditure of time) get at least basic information about any person, place, or thing. One other spell that concerns me greatly, though, and it's fairly low level -- Speak with Dead. Since it doesn't require the soul or even the soul's permission, it's really hard to hand-wave it out of usefulness. I suppose the best way to handle it is to make sure I've structured the details of the murder so that I can control the information they receive from the potential use of this spell. I haven't had enough time to peruse non-SRD spells, so I don't know which ones I should be concerned about, if any.

The most obvious answer is that they are the resources of the church, clerics, paladins, monks, maybe even druids or rangers and otherwise faithful who have some experience with this sort of thing. Just because the other clerics are higher level doesn't mean that they are particularly good at solving mysteries or using divination spells to this sort of effect. Not all clerics are adventurers at heart. Other party members can be friends of those with a direct tie to the church. Or they could owe the church some service for past help such as healing or raising a relative from the dead or givin the nature of the deity preventing a flood or ending a drought.

This is an idea I had considered, but using this will depend on the character creation. I'm not one to force players to take any particular class. A cleric or paladin is a fair bet, though, since most parties are going to want some access to restoratives.

The next option is that the church is trying to keep this disaster a secret for the time being. The players are either trusted or the church has some hold over them that ensures they won't talk. Maybe they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time and thus know about the high priest's murder and thus are enlisted to help solve the crime rather than tell someone else who doesn't already know. Maybe some of the party members were on guard at the time of the murder or happened to overhear someone discussing it.

This is also a possibility. By the standard town development rules of D&D, though, almost of the guards and militia are WAR, FTR, and COM, but I can stretch this is a bit if it starts heading in this direction.

Finally, and this one is tricky, make the players somehow at fault. Then make them solve the mystery to atone. I once tricked the party into helping a thief of a powerful artifact escape the rightful authorities. Then they were tried and sentenced to solve the crime under a Geas. I knew the players well and was pretty sure I could get them to fall for it and they did, but it will be difficult and might be too much of a gamble with an online group you don't really know, especially if one of them is reading this right now.

I agree with the difficulties of doing this to people I don't know; with people who don't know my DMing style, this may appear heavy-handed right from the start, and I'm not sure how comfortable I am making them responsible for the murder directly or indirectly.

You don't have to take divination completely out of it. The church may have already done some divining and the initial clues you give the party could come from that, or if they get way off track later you might want to give them a nudge back in the right direction with some information the church has gleaned from the latest round of spells. This might make it feel more believable and less like you are taking DM's fiat with the spells.

This is a great idea too. I don't want the divinations to not be present, but I do want control the information they provide without crushing them under my DM boot.

 

[Scotley]

I should have addressed speak with dead. As you have said, it is a matter of setting up the murder so the victom doesn't know all the answers. Maybe the killer was a shadowy figure, but the high priest got a good look at a distinctive weapon, scar or peice of clothing. Of course the God of the dead could limit this one as well.

Legend Lore may not even be available. Its only a cleric spell if you have the knowledge domain. A bard or wizard/sorcerer of at least 11th level who knows the spell may not be available. Even if a willing caster is available it could take 2d6 weeks to get even vague information. The players goal may be to find a known suspect so that the spell can be used in a more timely manner. Remember that the target has to be 'legendary'--at least 11th level for this to work. I don't think this one is as dangerous as you believe, mainly due to the time factor and the vagueness of the answers. Additionally, it gives a reason for the players to be involved. The caster of the spell is going to be tied up for weeks, so a high level cleric or wizard is going to be too busy to do the leg work needed to solve the mystery.

Other important temple figures may be tied up protecting the infant and calming the followers. That means they need some outside help if some of the clues and leads take the investigator out of the temple or even out of the city.

 

[VoiceOfReason?]

IMHO, it would be quite easy to simply change your god of death to a god of death and knowledge-giving him complete control not only over resurrection spells, but over divinations as well. The god of death might protect the murderer simply because he's a murderer, or for the same spite that he refuses to free the priest's soul.
maybe that's too simple, I dunno.

 

[Mordane76]

It's not that it's too simple, it's that it then becomes an application of DM fiat. If the god of Death controls Divinations and Resurrections, and refuses to give information on the murderer for this reason or that, then the players have no way of solving the murder other than whatever meager storyline I've outlined before the game. I don't want them to feel like they are re-enacting a novel; I want them to attempt novel ideas at solving the crime, which may even include these divinations - I just don't want the application of divinations to be the only means of solving the crime, or a way for the characters to circumvent actual investigations and confrontations of issues. Also... I'd already slide "Knowledge" into the portfolio of the Lord of Rivers as a "water exists and flows like time and information" connection, so I'm going to stick with that instead of giving Death another slice of the pie. When push comes to shove, Death gets a one-up on the Lord of Rivers because Death (along with Sun) will be greater deities, while Earth, Rivers, and Nature will be intermediate deities.


From what I've read of speak with dead since it doesn't involve the spirit of the dead body, it doesn't require the "consent" of Death, and I plan to keep it that way. I think structuring the action is the best way to handle this spell; it needs a Clr8 to cast it, and I'm thinking of starting this campaign in the 3-5 range anyway, so the characters won't have direct access to it without commandering a higher level cleric. The highest living cleric in the city is the temporary high priest of the Lord of Rivers at Clr10 (the high priest of Rivers was higher), so there maybe one or two clerics in the city that can actually cast the spell in the first place.

 

[Psychotic Jim]

Actually, yes - my readings through Legend Lore have given me some cause for concern, as it appears you can (although with a great expenditure of time) get at least basic information about any person, place, or thing. One other spell that concerns me greatly, though, and it's fairly low level -- Speak with Dead. Since it doesn't require the soul or even the soul's permission, it's really hard to hand-wave it out of usefulness. I suppose the best way to handle it is to make sure I've structured the details of the murder so that I can control the information they receive from the potential use of this spell. I haven't had enough time to peruse non-SRD spells, so I don't know which ones I should be concerned about, if any.

As far as Speak with Dead goes, the spell description says it needs a "mostly intact" corpse.

"A damaged corpse may be able to to give partial answers or partially correct answers, but it must have at least a mouth in order to speak at all." If you wanted to completely cut this spell off you could have the killer simply decapitate the high priest's dead body. If you wanted to give out partial answers with this spell, make the body be badly damaged. Another option might be to give the high priest incorrect or partially correct information about his murder. Also, the spell can only be cast on a specific corpse 1/week, so that means the characters have to be careful with their questions. One way of dealing with Legend Lore is to give the characters a time limit until the infant is killed. By the time Legend Lore is cast, it might be too late to stop the consequences of whatever plot you had in mind.

 

[Mordane76]

I hadn't decided what state the corpse will be in yet, so there is plenty of room for alteration should speak with dead become an issue.

I'm interested in allowing things from the Complete series of books, which I have only skimmed through so far. Can anyone think of spells or powers from these books that I might want to avoid or prepare for in advance?

 

[Scotley]

Some of the domains in the Complete Divine such as Inquistor, Mind, Dream and Oracle concentrate on spells already addressed in this thread plus a couple of new ones that might need attention.

Brain Spider allows access to the thoughts of up to 8 creatures at a time. Look this one over carefully. This one could allow for the searching of thoughts and memories of lots of possible suspects one at a time or glean the information about a particular subject from all eight minds at once. This spell looks like a real problem. The only real defenses are a high will save and keeping the people who know something out of long range--at least a thousand feet. At least its an 8th level spell--7th for Mind domain.

Deific Vengence--This one might be fun to have around once the killer is discovered.

Dream sight is a long range clairvoyance spell. Not specifically dangerous, but something to think about.

Scent could make it easier for the party to track a known bad guy.

One other spell here you might want to look at is True dominiation. By using this spell to force someone normally loyal and trusted to commit the murder you can let divinations reaveal the murder from the beginning and instead the mystery is who cast the spell. This will eliminate a lot of the possible use of divination spells. Not all, but most spells will be limited by the fact that the true cause of the high priest's death was far away and never actually at the temple or seen by anyone. He needs no willing allys that could reaval something under truth or mind reading spells. Anyway, its something to think about.

I haven't been over all the prestige classes, so some of them may have a divination power as well, but those above seem to be the only spells of concern.