D&D (2024) Monks Are Not Tanks And Shouldn’t Be

[Minigiant]

Fundamentally the monk should not be a tank.

A monk should be able to tank or not tank.
But the same with dealing damage, healing, or control.

In the 4e sense, the monk should be all four role but have to choose.

The fundamentally problem is that the monk requires so many class features at base which aren't in the core rules that a satisfying monk would require either

1) 3 or more class features at every level for the first 7-9 levels
Or
2) a subsystem of building blocks like invocations or infusions to customize your monk
Or
3) strong additional integration into the feat system

THe iconic images of Monks are both offensive and fast or defensive and still or offensive and still or defense and fast.

you cannot create such a class in a one size fits all paradigm. That's why monks always miss the mark.

 

[codo]

Something I have been looking at is to give monks a mastery on unarmed strike that would allow the monk to not provoke opportunity attacks from a target they hit that round. It would give monks the mobility they need to disengage from combat, and it would better integrate unarmed strikes with the masteries system.

I also agree that monks could use another attack, but instead of giving them extra attack at level 11, I would upgrade flurry of blows to allow you to make 2 attacks, 3 with a ki point. It just seems more flavorful for a monk, and there is less chance of stepping to the toes of the fighter.

It also has the added benefit of making the bonus action more valuable for a monk. If over half of monks damage comes from the bonus action flurry of blows, there is more room for other monk abilities using a bonus action to not need to use discipline points. Abilities like Step of the Wind and Patient Defense.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Except they don’t really have any ranged capabilities, so it instead encourages them in the direction of a hit-and-run style skirmisher, which is exactly what the monk is supposed to be. Just like melee rogues, which again, are also a high-damage, high-mobility, 1d8 hit die class.

You'd think, but I just had a whole debate about how saying Monks should engage in melee and not ranged attacks is denying the full capabilities of the monk, who is capable of using ranged weapons and should always use those weapons to kite melee enemies.

And, I think bringing up the rogue is an important point. The rogue... doesn't have to be melee. Even the most melee focused rogue is going to be able to seamlessly switch to ranged attacks. Additionally, while the rogue has fairly comparable AC to the monk, they have an easier time getting back out of melee, and they have uncanny dodge to decrease the damage they take if hit.

Bards, Rogues, Clerics, and Druids can all be in melee, but they can also trivially switch into ranged combat, and often will because they have a hard time standing up on the front-lines. We don't want the monk to be encouraged to seek ranged combat, and a little bit more hp in the form of a d10 is a simple way to do that, making them on par with the Rangers, who are also capable skirmishers.

Martial artists are known for getting into a ring and having a 1 on 1 bout… with other martial artists, with the same equipment (or lack thereof) as their opponents, for sport. A martial artist would be a fool to try to get into a ring for a 1 on 1 bout against a heavily armed and armored opponent, let alone several such opponents on a battled. In that context, the martial artist has to do what anyone does when facing better-equipped forces in battle - use hit-and-run, gurulla tactics.

But the fundamental fantasy of the Monk is that they are so good with their fists and bare body, that they CAN fight someone with superior equipment. That is the entire point. Otherwise all Monks should just be rogues or fighters or barbarians.

And as it stands, 1 on 1 or 1 v many, the monk is encouraged to be a melee class that avoids melee. Which is a rough design space for them.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Something I have been looking at is to give monks a mastery on unarmed strike that would allow the monk to not provoke opportunity attacks from a target they hit that round. It would give monks the mobility they need to disengage from combat, and it would better integrate unarmed strikes with the masteries system.

I also agree that monks could use another attack, but instead of giving them extra attack at level 11, I would upgrade flurry of blows to allow you to make 2 attacks, 3 with a ki point. It just seems more flavorful for a monk, and there is less chance of stepping to the toes of the fighter.

It also has the added benefit of making the bonus action more valuable for a monk. If over half of monks damage comes from the bonus action flurry of blows, there is more room for other monk abilities using a bonus action to not need to use discipline points. Abilities like Step of the Wind and Patient Defense.

Currently, my monk re-write has the following.

d10 HD

At level 1, as the 4th part of Martial arts: Flowing Stride: During your turn, if you make a melee attack against a creature, that creature can’t make opportunity attacks against you for the rest of your turn.

Flurry of Blows When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make an additional unarmed strike as part of that attack action. You may only do this once per turn. (This allows for the monk to spend more ki to be offensive and defensive at the same time. Which isn't a great incentive, but it is there)

I haven't written it yet, but I'm thinking 5th level allow for the reaction based Patient Defense.

10th level gives these:
When you use your Martial Arts ability or Flurry of Blows to make an unarmed strike, you can make one additional unarmed strike at no cost.

When you use Step of the Wind, your movement speed is increased by 10 ft.

You can take two reactions (on different turns) before the start of your next turn.


13th Flowing Speed: Beginning at 13th level, opportunity attacks made against you have disadvantage.

15th
You may make a third attack with your attack action.

You may take up to three reactions (on different turns) before the start of your turn

When you use your step of the wind, you may ignore all difficult terrain.

And then 20th
when you roll for initiative you regain 4 ki points.

Additionally, Flurry of Blows, Distant Eye, Patient Defense, Step of the Wind, and the reaction from Deflect Missiles no longer cost any ki.

Finally, your unarmed strikes gain a +2 to hit and damage and you may take up to four reactions (on different turns) before the start of your turn

 

[Incenjucar]

Traditionally a D&D monk is more of an assassin figure (even a counter-assassin), hence low HP, high damage, and high mobility. Typically, a tank is high HP, medium damage, and low to medium mobility.

It seems more like a different kind of ki class is needed, more E. Honda and less Chun Li.

 

[codo]

At level 1, as the 4th part of Martial arts: Flowing Stride: During your turn, if you make a melee attack against a creature, that creature can’t make opportunity attacks against you for the rest of your turn.

That's not bad, but I would limit to unarmed strikes, not all melee attacks. Not for any real power reason, mostly just for flavor. I also really like the idea of integrating the unarmed strikes with the mastery system. It just seems cleaner to me.

 

[Vael]

I'm surprised that d10 hit dice is all it takes to become a tank. I'll have to talk to the Ranger.

Monks do feats of incredible endurance, this "must be squishy" requirement can go join THACO.

 

[Chaosmancer]

That's not bad, but I would limit to unarmed strikes, not all melee attacks. Not for any real power reason, mostly just for flavor. I also really like the idea of integrating the unarmed strikes with the mastery system. It just seems cleaner to me.

I agree with the flavor, but it would punish those who want to use weapons with their monk, which I don't want to do.

I'm actually fine with not giving monk's masteries, if instead you give them better access to the unarmed strikes shove and grapple rules. Because then they have shove, topple, and grapple baked into their unarmed strikes.

 

[Incenjucar]

I'm surprised that d10 hit dice is all it takes to become a tank. I'll have to talk to the Ranger.

Monks do feats of incredible endurance, this "must be squishy" requirement can go join THACO.

What do you think should determine hit die size?

 

[tetrasodium]

I'm surprised that d10 hit dice is all it takes to become a tank. I'll have to talk to the Ranger.

Monks do feats of incredible endurance, this "must be squishy" requirement can go join THACO.

There is a difference between"must be squishy " and "qualifies as a tank with zero equipment" though. Other classes progress from starting gear to upgraded mundane gear to magic gear, it's not reasonable for cultivator mumbo jumbo to equal. I've seen barbarian players say "holy crap that [medium armor] is awesome for me", monk players can do similar if they want to be a "tank".