Minor Action (save ends)?

[Major Moab]

Hi folks, long time listener first time caller here.
I've been exploring new characters lately, and I find that the warlock has a few abilities that are sustainable with the tag (save ends) at the end.

A good example is Crown of Madness (Daily level 5; PHB). It states: "Sustain Minor: The target makes a melee basic attack against one of it's adjacent allies of your choice (save ends)."

I am a little confused about this. Can they save against what is not an ongoing effect? If they save, can I continue to sustain the effect? If so, why bother with a save at the end of their turn? I am essentially guessing that it is a ongoing effect that eats my minor each turn. Am I right?

 

[AntiStateQuixote]

My understanding of this type of text:

Target gets a save at end of each of its turns. If save successful then caster cannot sustain with a minor action.

Also: welcome to posting on ENWorld.

 

[DracoSuave]

Yeah, it's a wtf.

Fortunately, you're covered on that. Wizards is currently public playtesting an update for the phb warlock class, and powers like that are getting changed to things that make sense.

Daily Arcane, Charm, Implement, Psychic
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: 2d10 + Charisma modifier psychic damage, and the
target must use a free action to make a melee basic
attack against one of its adjacent allies of your choice.
Miss: Half damage.
Effect: The target is subjected to madness (save ends).
Until the effect ends, you can use a minor action once
per round, starting on your next turn, to cause the target
to make a melee basic attack as a free action against one
of its adjacent allies of your choice


The document is here.

 

[AuraSeer]

It doesn't seem confusing to me. If the caster chooses not to sustain it, then the power ends (and no save is necessary). If the target saves, the power is ended (and cannot be further sustained).

Is there a detail I'm missing?

 

[ceiling90]

In a way it's quite redundant. Save ends is already a feature that gives a duration, sustain minor is also a feature that gives duration. So having both on the same duration line is just weird, and wasteful for the caster.

The new version, where it's a save ends with the caveat of a minor action on the casters turn to make the target do something clears it up, and makes it make a lot more sense.

I haven't played Warlock before, so I never really looked at powers that said that. I would have been confused at at least how weird the power worked.

 

[shamsael]

Yeah, it's a wtf.

Fortunately, you're covered on that. Wizards is currently public playtesting an update for the phb warlock class, and powers like that are getting changed to things that make sense.

Daily Arcane, Charm, Implement, Psychic
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: 2d10 + Charisma modifier psychic damage, and the
target must use a free action to make a melee basic
attack against one of its adjacent allies of your choice.
Miss: Half damage.
Effect: The target is subjected to madness (save ends).
Until the effect ends, you can use a minor action once
per round, starting on your next turn, to cause the target
to make a melee basic attack as a free action against one
of its adjacent allies of your choice


The document is here.

This is an interesting change.

Sustain Minor tells you taht when an effect ends, you may use a minor action to renew its duration. In this case, the duration was (save ends). The way e power was worded before, I thought it was trying to give us a way to extend the duration, but the rules didn't quite allow for it.

I'm glad to see that the power works mechanically now, but dissapointed that it's si ply a (save ends) effect now.

 

[chitzk0i]

It doesn't seem confusing to me. If the caster chooses not to sustain it, then the power ends (and no save is necessary). If the target saves, the power is ended (and cannot be further sustained).

Is there a detail I'm missing?

Yes. None of the powers were so awesome they needed the investment of extra actions as well as a (save ends) to balance them.

Also, it was far from obvious that your interpretation was the correct one.

 

[DracoSuave]

Yeah... technically it has two possible interpretations.

(save ends) is a conditional duration, meaning, that the effect ends when its condition is met... the target makes a saving throw against it.

Sustain, however, is an exception to conditional durations. If the effect would end on the turn you sustain it, it is instead extended to the next turn.

So the two interpretations would be:

The effect lasts until the opponent made a saving throw, unless you spent a minor action on that turn to extend it. Minor actions are hard to spend on other people's turns, when they're making the saving throws.

OR

The attack the enemy makes has a duration of (save ends) which means that if the target of that attack makes his saving throw, the attack ends. Attacks being of no duration, this would never come into play.

Clearly... both make no sense, and instead it means it has a conditional duration of (save ends) and an unwritten one of 'until the end of your next turn' whcih sustain can effect. Tho that's not what the ability says...

The new way is so much better.

 

[Major Moab]

Thank you for all the responses! I particularly appreciate DracoSuave's translation that he found. It seems more wordy and "rules lawery," but it also seems far clearer.

Thanks again!