Microlite20 : the smallest thing in gaming

[kensanata]

Elegance

I don't think that rule elegance necessarily means improved playability.

[…] I don't think that people who are trying to simplify D&D generally think elegance is a principle that should be rejected out of hand.

Oh, I am sure that elegance is an important driving force. I'm just trying to avoid an overemphasis on some elements of elegance, such as things pairing up, or being symmetrical.

In M20, for example, we have three abilities, four races, four classes, and four skills. Now, is this fact alone a good reason to add a fourth ability? I don't think so. We could have five races (orcs STR+3, MIND-1), or five classes (rangers with Subterfuge +4, no sneak attack, and a free animal companion).

And, as I argued above, for a long time the Subterfuge skill has been the only skill my players have used regularly. I'm about to abandon the Knowledge skill, for example, arguing that I will either handwave it because I want my players to remember important facts that will give them an in-game clue right now, or because I want them to roleplay obtaining the knowledge. For example, just roll com+MIND, (or just 1d20 + MIND!) adding an appropriate bonus if trying to make a D&D knowledge check:

-5 if asking a villager from a remote village
+1 if asking an educated citizen
+3 if asking elders
+5 if asking a scholar (obviously a level 1 mage, haha)
+10 if researching in a library
+15 if researching in a library of international reknown

I'm not saying that I would like such a system better. I'm still trying to think of something. All I'm saying that elegance alone does not necessarily improves the game.

The next question, of course, is what exactly is this "elegance" I keep talking about? It's what I see in Larcen's message. And he was not the first to think in that line, if I remember correctly (although I'd have to search those 24 thread pages to actually find another example):

I thought about it and thought about it, and I think there really is this big hole without a Charisma score. It really is a huge stat in most campaigns (esp. heroic fantasy games) and their would be a void without it. CHA would also serve to round out all the classes, each having their own prime stat. Skills would also be rounded out, each having it's own prime stat as well.

The give-aways are "big hole without […] there would be a void without it […] to round out all the classes / skills […] each having […]" He's basically making an aesthetic argument. And I wanted to say that I'm not buying it on aesthetic reasons alone, without actually taking the time to explain why. I hope this post somewhat delivers what you were expecting.

 

[greywulf]

On to Larcen's and other's (excellent) feedback. I'm still ploughing through the backlog, my apologies.

1) Redundant Base Stats
Ultramicrolite20 works like that, using just bonuses as stats rather than a "3-18-ish" range. I kept the traditional range in Microlite20 simply because it's familiar and easy to explain in character generation.

2) MIND stat
I renamed it because it's more of a combination of INT, WIS and CHA, so needed a new name. STR and DEX however are still STR and DEX (though technically STR is really STR and CON, but now you're just being picky!).

3) Missing CHA score
Good points, all; that's why CHA is an optional stat in the Macropedia.

It's not in the Core simply because it can be removed with little impact on the game. As it shows in the Skill Use examples , all of the CHA-based skills can easily be recreated using the existing stat+skill system in Microlite20. Here's the d20 CHA-based ones again and their proposed M20 equivalents:

Bluff - Comm+MIND
Diplomacy - Comm+MIND
Disguise - Sub+MIND
Gather Information - Comm+MIND
Handle Animal - Comm+MIND or Comm+STR (if the animal is bigger than you)
Intimidate - could be Phys+STR, or Sub+MIND or Comm+STR. You choose
Perform - Comm+MIND, though it could be DEX if you’re juggling, or STR if you’re a weightlifter
Use Magical Device - you can either use it, or you can’t. GM fiat. Alternatively, MIND only

That's not a lot of skills in return for a whole extra stat, but if you want to include it, go ahead.

Remember that in Microlite20 the Cleric has been re-tooled as the Communication king (+3 Comm) so that class can be used to reflect the empathic Healer, charismatic Bard (cleric of music, perhaps?) intimidating Druid (cleric of nature), puplit bashing Priest or inspiring Paladin. If you want to play any of those then it's a Cleric you want.

Clerics in Microlite20 rock, just like Fighters, Magi and Rogues rock. Did I mention that?

And as for the "stupid charismatic leader" thing - it's called role-playing! - Give me a STR 16 DEX 14 MIND 6 Fighter and the role-playing provides the charisma. This should translate into positive mods on skill use when it applies.

"Ivan say we all charge Orc stronghold! Ivan say we win! Ivan say we bring great treasure back home to our wives and children! You with me? Yes? Yes? YEEEEESSSSSS!!!"

4) No negative bonuses
Call me old skool, but I like my negatives. I like the STR 6, MIND 16 Magi. And the STR 16 MIND 6 Fighter too. Negatives maketh for Interesting Characters. If I wanted perfection, I'd be me, but this is Fantasy, right?

Again, each to their own. If you want only positives, do it.

5) Magic Saves
I agree; that's how it is now. I really need to make the magic rules clearer. As it says in the core:

"Note that there are no 'saving throws' in this game; use Physical + STR or DEX bonus for Fortitude and Reflex saves. Saving against magic (Will save) is usually MIND bonus + your level."


So if the spell grants a Reflex save, roll Phys+DEX against the given DC (usually 10+Spell Level, or whatever).

This has been clarified in the Revised rules already though.

6) Class based HP dice
The reason why every class gets the same HP scale is that it's simple and consistent. As Magi and Clerics use HP to cast spells, they need all the HP they can get.

Personally, I think that D&D's HP system is just plain silly. Why does an Ogre Wizard only get d4 Hit Points per class level, or a Halfling Barbarian get d12? HP should be based on Creature Type, and only on Creature Type. Regardless of class, a Humanoid in D&D should get 1d8 HP/Level. As this is Microlite20 not D&D, I simplified that to STR+1d6/level. This gives 1st level characters the boost they deserve (and fuel for Magi and Clerics). That's the reasoning, anyway.

Of course, if you want to change it (and maybe write it up as a House Rule in the Macropedia), please do!

7) Size based HP dice
Simplicity again. I ditched all of the size-based crap from the game as it just gets in the way of a good story. I think Bilbo, Frodo, Merry and Pippin prove that Hobbitses are every bit as tough as humans (if not more so), and the same should apply to their kender-bred Halfling cousins.

Same for weapon sizes. Halflings are more likely to use shortswords and smaller weapons because their higher DEX puts them at a considerable advantage with light weapons if they are Fighters or Rogues. If someone wants to generate a STR 18 Halfling I'm pretty sure they'll be able to wield a greatsword with the best Human Fighters, and do the same damage. It'll drag on the ground while they are walking, but still..........

8) Level advancement: How does the EL rules as they stand take into consideration the party's size?

The important part in the Core here is "Add up the Encounter Levels (ELs) of every encounter you take part in." If there's 8 opponents then then each PC might only face off against one or two of them. They only get the EL for the dudes they fight.

For example, if Todd the Barbarian (Fighter-1) gets into the fight and helps take down two of the EL2 critters, he needs to finish off 6 more EL-worth of monsters to reach Level 2.

9) Kensanata also asked whether the skills other than Subterfuge ever gets used. I guess the answer to that is it entirely depends on your style of game. My group use all of the skills, a lot and often in surprising ways. Surprising to me, anyway. Here's some examples (not all done by my group, but they coulda):

Phys+STR - Bash down a door, swim a stream, lift a corpse
Phys+DEX - Climb a rope, dodge a flame trap, jump away from a Goblin's car (don't ask)
Phys+MIND - To judo throw a foe
Sub+STR - escape from ropes,
Sub+DEX - Hide, Move silently, disable a trap, palm a coin
Sub+MIND - Listen, search, spot, disguise
Comm+STR - Intimidate the Goblins, outstare an Ogre
Comm+DEX - juggling act, hand signals, ride a horse, forge documents
Comm+MIND - Influence a crowd or individual, calm an animal, some Perform skills
Know+STR - find a foe's weak point, blacksmithing
Know+DEX - most Craft skills, many Perform skills
Know+MIND - research, streetwise knowledge, gather info, recall facts

That's just off the top of my head. In game the skill uses come thick and fast, of all kinds.

10) popeclayton asked about monster conversion.
The short answer is don't! Monsters can be taken straight from D&D, the SRD or published adventures and used as-is. Most of the stats don't apply , do just ignore them.

For example:

A Darkmantle's stats as per the SRD are:

Hit Dice: 1d10+1 (6 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 30 ft. (poor)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +6 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+0
Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d4+4)
Full Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d4+4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Darkness, improved grab, constrict 1d4+4
Special Qualities: Blindsight 90 ft.
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +0
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 10
Skills: Hide +10, Listen +5*, Spot +5*
Feats: Improved Initiative
Environment: Underground
Organization: Solitary, pair, clutch (3–9), or swarm (6–15)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 2–3 HD (Small)
Level Adjustment: —

Cutting out the chaff, Microlite20 just needs:

Darkmantle, HD1d10+1 (6 hp), AC17, Slam +5 (1d4+4)

For special abilities, judge them based on speed and simplicity. Using the example above, I'd suggest that a Darkmantle does 1d4+4 damage per round until the victim makes a Phys+STR save vs. DC 17 (the Darkmantle's AC). That's good enough to be playable and cuts right through the D&D grapple rules with a knife.

Hope that helps.

Phew! These were good questions. I'll post them in a FAQ on the Macropedia, and I'll trough through this thread for more. I'm sure there's lots now so it'll be worth collating them.

And thanks for the re-org in the Macropedia, Kensanata. Much appreciated!

All the best!

 

[Darrell]

As it stands with Microlite20, the Core Rules are designed to be the bare miniumum needed to be able to play the game and still be mostly d20 compliant. By all means, add anything you need to make the game better fit your needs, and share what you've done with the rest of us too. We like to know how you think, and might even steal your ideas too. Theft is good. Change stuff too if you want. Microlite20 is a jumping off point, so jump!

Think of it like this.

D&D is like a car (ok, it's more like an 18-wheeler with no brakes, but run with me on this one). Microlite20 is more like a bicycle. It's got two wheels, pedals, brakes and a seat, and that's all. If you want to add a basket, or change the size of the wheels, go ahead. It's yours

Bear in mind though that if you add an extra set of wheels, an engine, extra seats and luggage space, you've got a car again. Maybe a slightly different style car, but still a car.

I think I've got to agree with the 'wulf on this one. From the beginning, part of the real beauty of m20 (at least for me) has been that I can, say, go to my local Barnes & Noble, buy a D&D adventure like 'Scourge of the Howling Horde,' and run it from the source material without a lot of conversion work. That ease of use with extant D&D/d20 sources is a primary reason why my group and I are actually running m20 more often than D&D now.

I've made my own changes, of course. For one thing, I'm one of those who prefers having CHA written back in. Other than that, however, I prefer to have m20 as a 'core' system with 'add-able' options; and the 'plug and play' aspect of the options with m20 means that you can switch out the magic system, extra ability scores, combat options, etc. without disturbing the 'core' of the game.

I'd say core microlite20 needs to stay pretty much as-is. Fill up the Macropedia with as many options as possible, though. It's always nice to be able to 'tinker' a bit.

Regards,
Darrell

 

[Pilsnerquest]

Checked out the "New Gods" campaign and it looks pretty nifty. The way it can be interwoven with the d20 skills, feats, races, monsters, etc. especially stood out. And those poor sterile male Pans watching the human males mate with their female Pans, the humanity! Or panity rather.

Pilsnerquest

 

[kensanata]

Monster Conversion

Cutting out the chaff, Microlite20 just needs:

Darkmantle, HD1d10+1 (6 hp), AC17, Slam +5 (1d4+4)

For special abilities, judge them based on speed and simplicity. Using the example above, I'd suggest that a Darkmantle does 1d4+4 damage per round until the victim makes a Phys+STR save vs. DC 17 (the Darkmantle's AC). That's good enough to be playable and cuts right through the D&D grapple rules with a knife.

I'd actually keep Initiative +4 because it is combat relevant, and add Subterfuge +10 because that will be important for a surprise attacks.

 

[jezter6]

Not sure if m20 is fully done, but I'd really like to chime in here.

Everyone gets a basic BAB of +1/lvl, fighters get that +5. AC does not scale, and because there are no special abilities to evade damage or boost AC outside of straight dex + armor, we have a problem.

Not to mention, with everyone getting d6 HP, the fighter really is getting hosed. Not only do all the other classes get full BAB/level, he can't take half the hits he normally could because he's got just over half his expected HP. A 20th level char with an AC of only 17-20 with barely 80 HP is not going to last long against anyone, let alone a challenge of the same levels. You cannot put a CR 20 encounter against 4 lvl 20 guys...they will die a horrible, HORRIBLE death because damage from weapons/sources/spells are unchanged, yet the PCs have less HP than they should.

Maybe it works in the 1-5 lvl range, but I can see where power creep comes in that EVERYONE hits, EVERY attack, EVERY round - but since everyone hits, and HP is low, nobody lasts more than 1 round ever.

At first I really liked the idea, as I was trying to rules-lite d20 myself...but this I'm not sure I'm able to handle. I'd love to not have to go back and create yet another lite20 clone, but I've yet to see a system handle everything.

 

[Ry]

I know some people liked my Reserve rules, but I don't want to hijack, so here's a link to my blog where I admit to my Big Fat Design Mistake:

http://ryanstoughton.spaces.live.com/

 

[kensanata]

Cr

You cannot put a CR 20 encounter against 4 lvl 20 guys...they will die a horrible, HORRIBLE death because damage from weapons/sources/spells are unchanged, yet the PCs have less HP than they should.

I'm interested in some playtesting data. Greywulf said he did "extensive playtesting at all levels", but perhaps he only tested player characteres against each other, 1:1, and not using monsters with a given CR. That is, his tests will tell us whether the four classes are balanced between each other, but his tests cannot tell us whether characters are balanced with monsters of a given CR.

I can see Greywulf handwaving all the CR stuff away, however.

Anyway, if anybody has the time to do some party-of-four against monsters of a given CR from the SRD, I'd be interested in hearing how it went!

 

[popeclayton]

More on Conversion

I'd actually keep Initiative +4 because it is combat relevant, and add Subterfuge +10 because that will be important for a surprise attacks.

I put together a (not so) brief look at and discussion of Greywulf's and kensanata's stat conversion comments on the d20 Conversion Example wiki page. Everything after the first "Discussion" header was pulled out of a very dark place by this very inexperienced GM, so please comment and adjust at will; I could be way off. Apologies, also, if I put words into anyone's mouth.

 

[greywulf]

Pilsnerquest, thanks for the feedback about the New Gods campaign setting. You're right, Pan males have it tough I'm more than tempted to run New Gods as a full campaign, and document the whole thing in a whole lot more detail than I put down so far. Maybe sometime, eh?

Jezter, Microlite20 doesn't have a concept of BAB at all; your attack bonus is level+STR bonus (for melee) or level+DEX bonus (for missile. Fighters get a +1 to that at 1st and every 5 levels. I guess you could say that BAB=level, but it's redundant and incorrect. A STR 18 Fighter could have a melee to-hit of +6/+1 at 1st level in Microlite20, and that's impossible in d20. BAB is a misleading term.

While AC doesn't scale the way to-hit bonuses do, 20th level character is unlikely to have AC that same as his 1st level simply because she'll have a tonne of magical armour, rings, bracers and all the rest of the frippery of near-Epic level power. I'd estimate a 20th level character would have around a +10 AC bonus from all those enchanted items. The best magical weapon they'll have would be around a +5, so AC jumps ahead in the arm's race.

The example I gave comparing a 20th level Fighter with a 20th level Rogue ignored magical items completely, because I was comparing like with like; it's fair to say the 20th level PCs would have similar-power magical equipment, so I just removed it from the equation. More to the point, I didn't put it in so I didn't need to take it out

Going back a step, a 20th level character is still mortal and just can't soak up damage like their D&D counterparts. I didn't want PCs with hundreds of hit points to slow down combat or charge Uber-monsters because they know they can survive anything it throws at them. For example, a 20th level D&D Fighter would have around 155hp. That's enough to be bitten by a Tarrarasque five times and still walk away.

In Microlite20, the hit points are higher at low levels and lower at high levels. This favours the little guy, but demands tactics at high levels. If that's a problem, feel free to adjust the hit points rules to suit

Maybe it works in the 1-5 lvl range, but I can see where power creep comes in that EVERYONE hits, EVERY attack, EVERY round - but since everyone hits, and HP is low, nobody lasts more than 1 round ever.

.....which is kinda accurate if you think about it. If you're facing off against the Greatest Assassin Ever (Rogue-20) and just stand there, you're going to be a meaningless puddle in under a round. Five hits, you're dead. If you're 20th level, you'll want Epic battles full of exciting cuts, ripostes, sparks flying, the works. So that's what you get. Don't just stand there!

How about this idea:
Attack in attack bonus order instead of initiative order.

For example, if Abel is a Fighter with +37/+32/+27/+22/+17/+12/+6/+1 and Bart is a Rogue with +30/+25/+20/+15/+10/+5. A single round of combat would go:

+37: Abel hits hard, following with
+32: a backhanded strike. Bart reels, following through the spin with
+30: a strike against Abel's side.
+27: Abel slashes upwards, catching Bart under the ribs
+25: Bart responds with a riposte
+22: Abel hits Bart across his face
+20: Bart locks blades, misses
+17: Abel pushes his back with a forceful strike
+15: Bart lunges, draws blood again
+12: Abel closes, misses
+10: Bart slices Abel's side
+6: Abel feints, narrowly misses
+5: Bart follows through, hits again
+1: Abel misses wildly

All in one round still, but perhaps a better solution. Combats at high level should be faster and deadly. Gods do not fight other gods lightly.

Hmmm. That would work at low level too. I'm suddenly tempted to ditch initiative completely and just go in attack bonus order. It's more Microliteish.

Ry, good points about Reserve. Psychology, dude. The survival mechanism outweighs the heroism mechanism every time, so Reserve will get stored. Darn those cautious players!

Kensanata,

I can see Greywulf hand-waving all the CR stuff away, however.

You know me too well!

We've play-tested parties of 0th, 1st-7th (current game level), 10th, 15th and 20th level characters in combat in /actual role-playing situations/ which is very different to using math-theory calculations. I'll write up examples (from memory) tomorrow and drop them into the Macropedia. In each case, Microlite20 was "good enough" to handle what we threw at it. Rules-lite meant we concentrated on role-playing rather than calculations, but the consensus was that they reflected a level of cinematic realism we liked. Of course, I'd love to hear more of other folks too!

popeclayton, thanks for adding to the Conversion notes.

I tend to avoid adding skills in the monster listings so they can be customised when they're needed. All creatures get skill bonuses = HD. If they're intelligent, they get +3 to one of the skills (to reflect training and learning by practice). As the Darkmantle isn't particularly clever, I'd just give it all skills @ +5, though a particularly bright one might get +3 to one - most likely Sub.

Yes, that does mean a Darkmantle has +5 Know. I'd judge MIND to be about 2, so they're at -4. That gives Know+MIND of +1. Enough to know what's tasty (halfling!) and what's dangerous.

Taking another step back, Microlite20 isn't designed to be the perfect system for all levels of play. It's designed to be small, rules lite and mostly d20 compliant. Given that D&D itself is a kinda funky broken system (which bits are broken and which aren't is open to continual debate) and Microlite20 is D&D with most, but not all, the rules removed, it's never going to be perfect.

And I like it that way