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D&D 4E Let's Talk About 4E On Its Own Terms [+]

Yeah, I agree, they do work well enough in that sense. Honestly, 1e is the only previous edition where I can comment on psionics (totally bad mechanics and no explanation at all of what they are and why they're different from magic). So maybe 3e did something interesting, but I never hear about it so I'm guessing no. The 4e version feels solid and a bit "this is not your grandpa's magic". And, honestly, the mechanics mostly DO work, they just produce some boring spammy class designs. OTOH many people loved the utterly boring spammy slayer, so...
Mechanically (I can't remember the thematics) 3e psionics were ... good. At least by the standards of 3.X. The psionic casting system is closer to the 5e magic system is even if they went full power point with it (rather than the semi-power-point of 5e with the fungible spell slots; upcasting was 3.X psionics). But equally importantly because they had literally 70 pages of spells (or rather powers) they were able to get a lot of interesting thematic work done with the classes. If you're going to have absurdly long spell lists then it did a good job of getting some strongly thematic builds and being ... less broken than core 3.X magic.
 

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My 4e fighter gained his powers by being struck by lightning while simultaneously being bitten by a wolf.

More seriously, the DMG2 has a section on adventure paths that mentions that the PCs spontaneously develop their powers by being too near an extra planar rift that opens near the town where they live.

I’ve also considered the idea that there are rituals that create heroes (Captain America style), but there is always a “kill switch”, if the heroes turn bad.

A skill challenge could be trying to find a way to counteract the kill switch when the king’s evil, usurping uncle figures out how to flip it.
 

Dausuul

Legend
4E was very tightly engineered. Crafting set-piece battles was a dream. Combat in general was dynamic and exciting, due to a number of innovations like minions and solo monsters. The rigorous mathematical foundation served it very well.

It did suffer from excessive "crunchiness," however; it was hard to play without electronic tools, and the books were generally unexciting to read -- which is actually a serious problem for an RPG. The skill challenge system was a decent skeleton but offered virtually no meat, and when DMs didn't add the necessary meat and just ran a skill challenge by the book, it was one of the most frustrating and immersion-killing mechanics I ever met.

Oddly, for a game so ruthlessly focused on mechanical design, it had some truly magnificent lore as well. The World Axis was a brilliant redesign.
 

Something occurred to me regarding modern climbing competitions, the route-setting and attendant route-beta (*) development & deployment in those comps, and some of the greater cultural complaints about D&D 4e combats.

Hopefully I can express this well and in a way that is accessible. Here goes:

I would say that somewhere in the last 6-ish years or so, route-setting has become much more of a science. It has become more technically precise in terms of holds set for various climbs; their orientation in relationship to the expected beta the route-setter is looking for, their measurable relationships with respect to the placement of other hand-holds and foot-holds. Route-setters have fine-tuned things to an extreme degree. However, the types of routes being tested in comps are simultaneously only turning like 4-5 knobs and the intense demands on optimizing for surmounting those 4-5 knobs is creating selection pressures which generates hyper-specific beta while punishing creativity, and an increasing focus on very particular skillsets. Finally, scoring/Win Con for comps has become more-or-less unified and very tailored.

All together this is creating an environment that is generating a lot of static repeats of competition boulder problems with increasingly subtle (or vanishingly meaningful) differences in both how they look on the wall and how they perform when climbed; the particular types of climbs (you could look at each of these like the various types of combat setups like "a Slab problem" which requires a lot of finesse and balance would be the inverse of a "Tank & Spank") are becoming increasingly rote, the intended beta for those climbs is naturally similarly rote, and so the actual climbs themselves are becoming increasingly homogenous. Over the course of several years, you're starting to get a feel like "uh, we've seen this exact boulder problem before...and we've seen that exact sequence...and that again...oh yeah, that too."

Rewind 10 years ago and the diversity of route-setting, possible betas, and the creativity in attacking the problems were all prolific. Comps required and rewarded creativity by the climbers. Every comp looked enormously divergent from the last. Heterogeneity in the look of the boulder problems and in the way various climbers attacked them was everywhere while individual boulders and comps-at-large remained fantastic tests for the raw fundamentals and physical prowess and technical acumen of climbing.

Simply put, a few things were happening back then:

* The route-setters were turning way more knobs and this generated significantly divergent climbing tests. Or, they were including one big, awkward feature that required unorthodox approaches and creativity (though still within the portfolio of climbing...though, even then, dynamic climbing with a lot of parkour stuff was creeping in) surmount in the middle of an orthodox climb.

* Climbing combs had different setups for scoring and advancing. This is the equivalent of different Win Cons for 4e combats.

* Therefore, instead of punishing creativity because of all of the selection pressures toward optimization and narrowing, you saw creativity rewarded and greater skill-diversity.

What is the lesson for 4e herein? Hopefully, its clear, but:

* Use all the knobs at your disposal (big features to surmount or to deploy, hazardous terrain pressure, Hazards as an important part of your encounter budgets, lots of different monster synergies, incentivize/reward movement, use fantastic terrain to single-use buff, use waves, use summoned minions, zones, auras, the battlefield suddenly changing on round x, nest situation-changin Skill Challenges with thematic importance, etc etc) as much of the time as you can (all the time really).

* Use divergent Win Cons (escort or pursue/escape to squares across the map, escape the collapsing whatever, protect the vulnerable Minion, get to square x and use the weapon y, etc) and combat archetypes from combat to combat.




* BETA is the developed course charted for the route, the sequence of moves individually and how they transition, and the novel approach to holds and foot placement in order to ascend a climb.
 

Kannik

Hero
Something occurred to me regarding modern climbing competitions, the route-setting and attendant route-beta (*) development & deployment in those comps, and some of the greater cultural complaints about D&D 4e combats.

Hopefully I can express this well and in a way that is accessible. Here goes:
I've not been climbing in years (and I never did competitions), but this is a fascinating analogy. I wonder if I visited a gym now if even the 'casual' routes are starting to follow this trend... and how bored I might become of it. My favourite two route setters* at my local gym were the ones who always had a 'trick' to their climbs, as in they weren't just difficult because the holds were small or spaced far apart, but they required some thinking, some creativity, some experimentation to overcome. Which is indeed something that's fabulous to play with in 4e design -- characters have abilities and flexibility and flavour that allow for a lot of interesting scenarios to be developed and played out. Sure, on the highest of levels, no more or no less than other editions (since anyone can try do to anything at any time), but as 4e characters are more competent and capable out of the box, there's more hints and invitations towards creative moves.

(Rich and especially RZ, for anyone who climbed at Planet Granite)
 

niklinna

satisfied?
I've not been climbing in years (and I never did competitions), but this is a fascinating analogy. I wonder if I visited a gym now if even the 'casual' routes are starting to follow this trend... and how bored I might become of it. My favourite two route setters* at my local gym were the ones who always had a 'trick' to their climbs, as in they weren't just difficult because the holds were small or spaced far apart, but they required some thinking, some creativity, some experimentation to overcome. Which is indeed something that's fabulous to play with in 4e design -- characters have abilities and flexibility and flavour that allow for a lot of interesting scenarios to be developed and played out. Sure, on the highest of levels, no more or no less than other editions (since anyone can try do to anything at any time), but as 4e characters are more competent and capable out of the box, there's more hints and invitations towards creative moves.

(Rich and especially RZ, for anyone who climbed at Planet Granite)
I used to climb at Planet Granite Belmont, back in the early 2000s. It's been a while! I never got serious enough to know route setters by name, but it was a fun time. I can certainly see analogies between climbing, route setting, and RPGs with high consistency and fairness to players.
 

Sanglorian

Adventurer
This has been a really interesting discussion to catch up on. Obviously there's a lot that I like about 4E, and I think modern gaming owes a lot to the innovations that 4E introduced - 4E in some ways paid the price for breaking from 3E/3.5, which let 5E and Pathfinder 2E do so to a lesser degree without opprobrium.

But if we're going to talk about 4E "on its own terms", as the thread topic very interestingly asks us to do, I think you have to look at 3E/3.5 as well. Just as 5E was in part a reaction to 4E, 4E was in part a reaction to 3.5.

Paragon paths are a reaction to the weird, contrived prerequisites that prestige classes had. Instead of requiring planning several levels in advance (or sometimes from character creation) as prestige classes did, paragon paths had few if any requirements other than level. And while there were many, many prestige classes that have at most one feat's worth of good ideas in them, every paragon path is significant, and many are worth taking.

3E monster design is a mess. It's extremely complicated, with lots of mathematical calculations, but often resulted in no mechanical difference at the end of the process. Flicking through a book of monsters from the era shows this up: many monsters had no distinct mechanical hook. That's fine for less complicated games like Basic D&D and AD&D, where the variety comes from tactics, lair, morale and attitude. 3E fell between two stools: monsters were complicated but not distinctive. 4E solves this problem.

While there had always been "min-maxing", the rise of Internet forums drew much more attention to it. There are far fewer "trash" options in 4E than there were in 3E. Half of 4E's feats may be trap options - but by the standards of 2008 that's actually pretty good! Powers are much more tightly balanced than the numerous character customisation options 3E had.

Despite being criticised as putting the game on easy mode or allowing for unlimited healing, 4E's healing surges are actually a much more grounded and limited version of what already existed. In 3E, the magic item rules meant after a few levels magical healing became ubiquitous. PCs could enter every battle fully healed. So why not allow natural healing to get PCs into that position, as 4E does? In fact, the d20 Star Wars RPG was celebrated for having vitality points and hit points, to reflect the difference between glancing blows and lasting injuries. Hit points and healing surges in 4E effectively play the same role: it's the depletion of your healing surges that reflects true body blows. Everything else is scrapes, near misses, running out of luck, etc.

The game balance of 3E depended on "the Big Six" magic items. 4E tried a lot harder to get PCs a balanced mix of magic items, and remove a lot of magic item dependency.

You wouldn't know about the Big Six from reading the 3E rulebooks, because these mechanical underpinnings were obfuscated. 4E refused to obfuscate its expectations around encounter design, magic item distribution and so on - much to its detriment, as it opened it up to criticism. I actually think many of the criticisms of 4E identify real problems, but I would argue that most of these problems were present, but hidden, in 3E.

Outside of 3E's long shadow, another distinctive feature of the first decade of the 2000s is the rise of story games. These games often focused on producing a particular experience, over simulating a world and anything in it as 3E and both Pathfinder editions try to do. I think of 4E as a story game of Dungeons & Dragons: laser-focused on producing a particular play experience. That's why I always find it funny when people say 4E didn't feel like D&D - I think it tried too hard to feel like D&D!

I hope this doesn't come across as unfair criticism of 3E. I found 3E very exciting and expansive at the time, and its innovations are felt 20+ years on. Nor should 4E be left off the hook: I think it made many missteps, in part because it was too focused on reacting to 3E.
 

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