D&D 5E Initiative and Saves

[KarinsDad]

Initiative plays a key role in how well saves work in 5E. Since Delay no longer exists (except as a house rule), PC spell casters can be at a disadvantage when it comes to save spells based on initiative.

Example initiative order:

PC 1
NPC 1
PC 2
NPC 2
PC 3
NPC 3
PC Spellcaster
NPC BBEG

Say that the PC Spellcaster wants to cast a Hold Person spell on the NPC BBEG.

The NPC BBEG gets a save on the PC Spellcaster's turn, then if necessary, gets another save at the end of his own turn.

This results in the following odds, say at level 3 when the PC has a save DC of 13 and the BBEG has a +0 on his saves:

40%: nothing happens
24%: loses an action, no paralysis.
14%: loses two actions and one full round of paralysis.
09%: loses three actions and two full rounds of paralysis.
05%: loses four actions and three full rounds of paralysis.

If the spell caster cast the spell on NPC 3 with a +0 to saves:

40%: nothing happens
24%: loses an action and one full round of paralysis.
14%: loses two actions and two full rounds of paralysis.
09%: loses three actions and three full rounds of paralysis.
05%: loses four actions and four full rounds of paralysis.

As can be seen, the results here vary significantly based on initiative. Without Delay, spell casters cannot do much to affect this situation. Course, using Delay means that the BBEG would be able to get one action in automatically before the caster could cast, but the player does not even have the option to take that risk.

 

[Boarstorm]

If the PC spellcaster readies an action ...

(sorry, couldn't resist)

It's a valid point. Did you have a solution in mind?

 

[Astrosicebear]

If the PC spellcaster readies an action ...

(sorry, couldn't resist)

It's a valid point. Did you have a solution in mind?

Its the meta game way to do it, but yes, the PC should ready the action for the BBEG to do anything, and then PC spell is cast. Now if the BBEG fails, he loses his action, and the full next turn goes, and the PC can ready a new action.

 

[pming]

Hiya.

I couldn't find anywhere under Saving Throws that actually states that you make an "immediate save when the effect hits you". In other words, the spellcaster casts Hold Person...then it's the BBEG's turn; he does whatever he was planning, then tries to make his save (as the spell specifically says "at the end of his turn").

...but that's all nit-picky and doesn't do anything for running a smooth and fun game. So I'd suggest deciding how you want saves to work. Personally, I have the target make an immediate saving throw at that moment, not at the "end of it's turn". I also run my game uisng "actual rounds", where everyone on both sides gets to perform one action. I believe this was the intent of even having initiative...otherwise, why even have it? I mean, if there is no 'block of time', then there is no 'I go first, you second, him third' because there is no 'start' or 'end' of a 'round/turn'. If I could find an easy way to use Hackmaster Basic's "count up" time system I'd do that. (...hmmmm, perhaps a new project is in order for me to pass the time...)

As per RAW, however, the only thing for certain is he gets a save at the end of his turn and it says nothing about getting one before his turn starts or during the turn of the caster. Read it how you will, I guess.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Boarstorm]

As per RAW, however, the only thing for certain is he gets a save at the end of his turn and it says nothing about getting one before his turn starts or during the turn of the caster. Read it how you will, I guess.

"The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or be paralyzed for the duration. At the end of each of its turns, the target can make another Wisdom saving throw."

Emphasis mine, of course. I think it's pretty clear that an immediate save is RAW.

 

[keterys]

Yeah, much like sneak attack, it feels like they're making ready-ing a key component of optimal spellcasting.

Personally I think I'd have preferred if they dropped ready instead of Delay, but oh well.

 

[Dausuul]

As can be seen, the results here vary significantly based on initiative. Without Delay, spell casters cannot do much to affect this situation. Course, using Delay means that the BBEG would be able to get one action in automatically before the caster could cast, but the player does not even have the option to take that risk.

Delay has been subsumed into readying. You can just ready your spell to cast immediately after the BBEG's turn. In some ways, this is better than delaying would have been, because your next action still happens before the BBEG's; you get to paralyze the BBEG and whale on it before its turn.

The drawback, of course, is that you risk having the BBEG disrupt your concentration while you "hold" the readied spell. However, you could always declare your trigger to be "When the BBEG attacks me or ends its turn."

Alternatively, your fellow PCs could ready their attacks for after you cast the spell. This is generally superior, since whacking the enemy this round is better than whacking it next round, and readied attacks can't be disrupted the way readied spells can. But it requires more coordination, and commits the whole party to attacking the BBEG even if it makes the initial save. It also means everybody's giving up their chance to make opportunity attacks for the round.

 

[KarinsDad]

Delay has been subsumed into readying. You can just ready your spell to cast immediately after the BBEG's turn. In some ways, this is better than delaying would have been, because your next action still happens before the BBEG's; you get to paralyze the BBEG and whale on it before its turn.

The drawback, of course, is that you risk having the BBEG disrupt your concentration while you "hold" the readied spell. However, you could always declare your trigger to be "When the BBEG attacks me or ends its turn."

I thought about Readying, but Readying is "I ready for when someone comes through the door", not "I ready for when the BBEG's turn is over". The PC doesn't really know about turns. Using Ready that way sounds a bit metagamey.


In the init example above: "I ready when PC 1 moves.". (?)

 

[Dausuul]

I thought about Readying, but Readying is "I ready for when someone comes through the door", not "I ready for when the BBEG's turn is over". The PC doesn't really know about turns. Using Ready that way sounds a bit metagamey.

In the init example above: "I ready when PC 1 moves.". (?)

PCs don't know about initiative as such; but they do understand timing. You're timing your spell to hit the BBEG just as your allies are about to start their counterattacks, so that the BBEG has less time to shake off the effect before they strike. "At the end of the BBEG's turn" is just a shorthand way of expressing that.

"I ready when PC 1 moves" also works.

 

[Tormyr]

Unless PC1 does not move. Then you are still holding your spell. Readying an action requires a strange amount of precision sometimes. You only get 1 trigger, and if it doesn't happen, it takes 6 seconds before you realize it is not happening and you can change your strategy.

As for initiative, them's the breaks sometimes.