D&D 5E Identify Spell vs Resting With Item

[Dice4Hire]

Thinking of cursed items in a game, I would tend to have cursed items be either non-existent or very prevalent.

In a game with high magic, I would have them be very rare to non-existent. They area PITA and why would people either make them or keep them around? Sure, a curse that is actually the item exerting its will is good though. +2 vs orcs and -1 vs everything else would make a lot of sense and could probably be a lot cheaper to build than a +1 to everything sword.

But in a setting where magic items are rare (like a game I am gonna start up soon), virtually every item will have a "curse" like the one described above, but maybe not that strong.

 

[Lanefan]

How would the player's know that there may be more magic if the initial results of Identify come back with something positive?

Detect Magic might show a stronger enchantment level than the Identify results would justify; or they may have seen the item do something the Identify didn't pull; or simple trial and error.

Or they might never find it. Wouldn't be the first time.

There will be cursed items, or so we've been told. But I'm not sure I'd make the curse go off upon casting Identify. Otherwise, as the party wizard, I'd be giving the other members of the party the finger when they asked me to identify something for them.

This goes back to my whole point about magic being risky. The simple answer for the wizard is to get someone to use the item first and field-test it - let them trigger the curse if present - before casting ID on it.

And even if Identify did get around the curse, what could the PCs do with such an item? They couldn't sell it. Maybe they could use or find powerful magic to de-curse the item and then use it, but even then.

Or they could make sure one of their enemies ends up with it...I've seen this done.

I've also seen PCs intentionally dump cursed items (that they know about) onto other PCs (who don't know about it) as "gifts".

A cursed item seems to be a way for a DM to just kind of screw over his players. Yeah, it's funny ha ha in the slapstick kind of vein, but giving a player the "chore" of getting rid of it seems pedestrian and not exciting like other quests can be.

Depends how it's done. A PC who doesn't bother with ID and just relies on trial-and-error field testing might think she's got a fine shiny new sword that's really helping her out in combat (it's +2, +4 vs. Humans), and not realize for quite some time that it's slowly twisting her personality (i.e. changing her alignment) and that certain vile deeds must eventually be done (it's given her a quest)....

Lanefan

 

[KarinsDad]

Depends how it's done. A PC who doesn't bother with ID and just relies on trial-and-error field testing might think she's got a fine shiny new sword that's really helping her out in combat (it's +2, +4 vs. Humans), and not realize for quite some time that it's slowly twisting her personality (i.e. changing her alignment) and that certain vile deeds must eventually be done (it's given her a quest)....

Yeah, I get the appeal from the DM's pov, just not from the player's.

It sounds like fishing. The DM throws out this nice shiney magical item lure and the PC swallows it hook, line, and sinker.

A bit of long term campaign railroading under the disguise of "a weird magical item". Meh. I prefer for the PCs to be heroes and for the negative challenges to be a bit more short term. Long term challenges should be things like reoccurring villains, player background goals or quests, noble deeds, etc. Being stuck with a curse for 2 or 4 or 8 levels or whatever seems punitive.

 

[Joe Liker]

Detect Magic might show a stronger enchantment level than the Identify results would justify; or they may have seen the item do something the Identify didn't pull; or simple trial and error.

Or they might never find it. Wouldn't be the first time.
This goes back to my whole point about magic being risky. The simple answer for the wizard is to get someone to use the item first and field-test it - let them trigger the curse if present - before casting ID on it.
Or they could make sure one of their enemies ends up with it...I've seen this done.

I've also seen PCs intentionally dump cursed items (that they know about) onto other PCs (who don't know about it) as "gifts".
Depends how it's done. A PC who doesn't bother with ID and just relies on trial-and-error field testing might think she's got a fine shiny new sword that's really helping her out in combat (it's +2, +4 vs. Humans), and not realize for quite some time that it's slowly twisting her personality (i.e. changing her alignment) and that certain vile deeds must eventually be done (it's given her a quest)....

Lanefan

All of this strikes me as a very punitive, adversarial, backstabby approach to the game. Some players might think that's fun, but I'd say that's a rather small niche at best. If your players fit that niche, more power to you.

On the whole, though, I think the rules as written are probably a better fit for most campaigns.

 

[Lanefan]

All of this strikes me as a very punitive, adversarial, backstabby approach to the game.

Punitive? Not really, unless you expect in-game knowledge to be handed to you without effort.
Adversarial? Probably; given as how most of the PCs existence is occupied with finding something to fight and then fighting it, and sometimes that 'something' to fight is each other.
Backstabby? Only when it's not frontstabby.

Some players might think that's fun, but I'd say that's a rather small niche at best. If your players fit that niche, more power to you.

From my experience it's a bigger niche than you might think, at least in old-school circles.

On the whole, though, I think the rules as written are probably a better fit for most campaigns.

Perhaps today, seeing as the more recent editions have (wrongly, IMO) gone further and further toward the notion of giving players-as-characters in-game knowledge like this on a platter.

Realistically, you pick up a bell in the middle of what's been a pretty dangerous dungeon. Detect Magic reveals it to be moderately enchanted (and maybe gives a magic school, if you use such things). There's no carvings or command word on it. And you've no idea what it does.

Despite what recent editions might have in their rules, in reality simply sitting with an item like this for a while should NOT tell you anything more about its enchantment or purpose UNLESS that passing on of information is part of its enchantment. (and if it is you're probably dealing with an intelligent item, opening up all sorts of other cans of worms) If you want to mess with it, or ring it, that's up to you - you've taken a risk that it doesn't curse you and you might get a reward in learning what it does. Or you could carefully stow it away and worry about it once back in the safety of town.

Lan-"there's no fun in solving a mystery if there's no mystery to solve"-efan

 

[Psikerlord#]

Is it intended for both of these to end up with the same result?

Identify says

You choose one object that you must touch throughout
the casting of the spell. If it is a magic item or some
other magic-imbued object, you learn its properties
and how to use them, whether it requires attunement
to use, and how many charges it has, if any. You learn
whether any spells are affecting the item and what they
are. If the item was created by a spell, you learn which
spell created it.

Resting with an item just says you learn it's properties.

Also the whole resting with an item seems weird to me. After concentrating on an item for an hour, I now know it's a +2 to armor?

the result isnt the same, keeping it for an hour just tells you it's a wand of magic missiles. Identify will also tell you how many charges it has and whether it requires attunement (although you could work out attunement by trial and error presumably).

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Not from a verisimilitude pov. Magic items should be found (in priority):

1) Royalty.
2) Temples.
3) Military.
4) Nobility.
5) Dungeons and caves, whatever.

Magic items are created by NPCs. Hence, NPCs should own them. Dungeons and caves should be the easiest place for adventurers to find them because royalty, temples, the military, and to a lesser extent nobility have really difficult defenses to get past (instead of 5 foes show up, 50 foes with magic show up) whereas monsters in caves and such are not as organized and do not collect in as large of groups.

But because magic items are hoarded by the first 4 groups, they should be harder to find in group #5. For example, Orcs should have some magical items in an entire orc kingdom because they raided some villages and towns in the past. But again, orc royalty, temples, the military, and nobility should have those items, not simple orc shamans of a dinky tribe (except items the shaman himself could make, or maybe one that got handed down through the tribe for centuries).

Items to me should be rare for PCs because they are rare in dungeons and caves, not because the items are necessarily rare in the real world. If PCs start raiding temples and manage it, then their magical haul should be better. Course, the repercussions of that...

The abundance of magic items in the world scales proportionally with the magic level and power level of the world in general. If high-level characters and warding magic is rare, the king isn't going to be able to protect his artifact dagger from enterprising high-level rogues and illusionists and such for long. If your campaign world has level 20 palace guards guarding royal armories protected by level 20 wards and traps, then sure, there's probably loads of goodies in there.

 

[KarinsDad]

The abundance of magic items in the world scales proportionally with the magic level and power level of the world in general. If high-level characters and warding magic is rare, the king isn't going to be able to protect his artifact dagger from enterprising high-level rogues and illusionists and such for long.

In 5E, numbers matter more.

If high level characters are rare, then the number of attacks against the royal treasury should be rare, and 30 level 10 men at arms should be able to protect against a single (rare) high level rogue. And the king only needs at most one 17th level palace wizard, not a boatload of them.

One typically does not equate rare to nonexistent. The king can afford one high level spell caster.

The number of royal magic items can be quite high in rare or non-rare magic level and power level worlds. How potent those items are might be different, but if one NPC can make a +1 sword, then he should be able to make multiple +1 swords (shy of campaign rules that magic item creation debilitate the creator).

If your campaign world has level 20 palace guards guarding royal armories protected by level 20 wards and traps, then sure, there's probably loads of goodies in there.

Sure.


Now, if we are talking about a level of rarity where 5th level NPCs are rare, then even mid-level PCs soon become demigods anyway and why bother playing 5E that way? PCs should be challenged by humaniod NPCs just like they are challenged by monsters. The court wizard should be considered powerful by most players in many campaigns, just because he is the court wizard. He should also, in many campaigns, actually be powerful.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

I take the tiers as kind of a useful guide here: a king's most prominent knights, viziers, etc. should probably be in the level 11-16 range, guiding the fate of the kingdom. Anyone level 17+ I'd in the borderline-epic tier and probably isn't for hire - they're focused on larger issues than the squabbles of kingdoms and nobles.

 

[Cannyjiggit]

I generally prefer the way my group has always played cursed items. Many items have a "curse" of some sort which in most cases is a roleplay effect.

In the current game, my cleric has a +1 ring of protection that also gives a +2 bonus to initiative and a strong (but false) sense of confidence and bravery. Any plan I come up with, I believe is perfect and if I want to leave a combat (useful as a cleric if someone else is hurt) then I must make a charisma save to overpower the ring unless I am clearly moving into a more dangerous situation.

In a previous campaign, there was an amulet made from the dessicated tongue of a fire demon. This allowed a selection of spells to be cast a few times per day (such as faerie fire) and dealt an additional point of fire damage to anyone struck by a weapon held by the bearer (also giving the effects of a +1 weapon if it wasn't already magical). However, once per day the bearer had to say "the wrong thing" at the most awkward moment possible. One such example was to the local dignitry of a town when being asked to look into the disappearance of trade supplies that hadn't arrived, "If we take our time recovering them, it might give you chance to lose some weight". Basically, the DM left this to the player to choose when and what to say but if she went too long without insulting someone important the item would stop working.