I think I'm stalling out my own game

[Mordane76]

I have a problem, and I'm not sure how to fix it.

It appears I have potentially overloaded my players with options, hooks, and paranoia. Almost any decision that needs to be made takes upwards of an hour of discussion to make, because no one can decide any of the following -

Which hook/option to follow;
What are the possible consequences of following or not following a hook/option;
Can we possibly hit more than one hook/option at once, and;
Why should we even try certain options when we could possibly run and hide?


A general overview of my plot, hopefully without spoiling it if my players happen in here:
The BBEG is seeking to retrieve artifacts that will allow him to call back his master from beyond the void, who is obviously an even bigger BBEG. Together, these BBEGs will reforge a empire that fell thousands of years ago. The characters are half working-for, half working-against the BBEG. The characters have several available side-plots that all connect back to the BBEG in various ways -

One of the character's father has been imprisoned for treason because he has been implicated (falsely) in one of the BBEG's schemes. This character also happens to be the mage apprentice of one of the direct associates of the BBEG.

The characters have one of the artifacts that the BBEG needs, and have hidden it where they don't think he can find it. They are also interested in trying to find the other artifacts he needs and hide them as well.

Several members of another character's family have gone missing in an evil kingdom, where some of the BBEG's allies are active.

One of the characters is partially sympathetic to the BBEG's plans and is trying to subtlely steer the party in the BBEG's direction.

One of the characters has an old flame that now indirectly works for a direct associate of the BBEG.


My dilemma is several-fold. First, play is grinding to a halt because everyone has different opinions about what is the most important - even inside the different sub-plots, they can't decide which points of order to follow, because they either disagree about what is the most important or what the potential consequence of their actions could be. This wouldn't be a problem if everyone was enjoying the constant deabate, but I can see it is starting to wear on several of the players because much of the session results in no actual forwarding of the plot, just discussion about what actually should be done.

Second, I don't think the characters truly realize just how powerful the BBEG is, but I don't want to kill one of them outright to show them. However, I think they need to realize just how far ahead of them he is, and just how much of what is going on he has planned or already thought of. The problem is I don't know exactly how to lay this out without feeling like I'm railroading the characters... but I think they might need a little railroading to get back on track.

Third, I still have more plot elements I want to get out on the table, but I think the characters are already inundated with options and information that it might actually cause their brains to lock up like Windows 3.0. These plot elements are however important to the story I have planned...

HELP?!

 

[Crothian]

One option is have a trusted ally talk this all over with them and help them organize and prioritize. You might actually help them by showing them a few plots that can be dealt with at once assuming there are any. Are they on time constraints? If they have plenty of time to investigate each plot line then let them know that.

 

[Enkhidu]

Problems as I see it:

1) Lack of party leadership. If your players are discussing the pros and cons of certain actions for hours and still not coming to a consensus, they have too many chiefs. Convoluted plots can require a "tie breaker" when the party is split on available choices, and that either means an outside force or an inside decision maker. You can nudge your players in this direction if they are willing by simply having NPCs begin treating one member of the party (usually the high CHA PC) as party leader.

2) Lack of clear focus. This doesn't seem to be a problem for you in the big picture dept - you've got a BEBG that's "known," and from the sound of things the PCs are already headed for a showdown with him. However, your sidetreks have some very personal connotations, and that may be playing havoc with the party. "I need to find my sister," "No I need to find my Dad," But my ex is now working for the badguy!" All of these are "must do it now" missions. What could help is to place one of these PCs in more serious danger by upping the ante (perhaps the father is going to be executed instead of just imprisoned). This gives the PCs a more clear cut decision when it comes time to decide where to go next.

3) Players/PC that don't "get" how much of a bad mofo a BEBG is can be a problem. You can handle this in a few ways:
- The BEBG's lieutenant comes calling - a henchman comes to deliver a very violent message, or attempts to remove the PC thorn from the BEBG's side
- The simulacrum - a play on the above, but the BEBG sends a simulacrum of himself. That should give the PC's pause, especially if the fight is very, very tough. It can provide and "OMG he's easily twice as powerful as that" moment.
- Shake the pillars of heaven - Maybe the BEBG's evil plot has visible and far reaching effects (like,to draw on Krynn's literature, constellations turn up missing) that give the "OMG I didn;t think he was that close to finishing!" moment.

As for new elements, assuming that they're more side-trek style plots I'd introduce them after tying up enough loose ends that the game is running more smoothly. Then reintroduce them to muddy the waters a bit.

 

[Mordane76]

One option is have a trusted ally talk this all over with them and help them organize and prioritize. You might actually help them by showing them a few plots that can be dealt with at once assuming there are any. Are they on time constraints? If they have plenty of time to investigate each plot line then let them know that.

They are on a time constraint in a way - if they can keep the artifact they have away from the BBEG for another 200 some-odd game days, his plans will be upset for the next 224 years, as he must use the first artifact on a particular concordance of calendars and energies which only occurs once every 224 years - this they know.

The plot involving the one character's father is on a time constraint as well, of which they are aware.


As for a trusted ally... they don't really have any true NPC allies. The closest they have are two NPCs whose true allegiances they don't really know, otherwise everyone they've come in contact with so far has proven to somehow be in league with the bad guys. Perhaps I should give them a clear-cut ally?

1) Lack of party leadership. If your players are discussing the pros and cons of certain actions for hours and still not coming to a consensus, they have too many chiefs. Convoluted plots can require a "tie breaker" when the party is split on available choices, and that either means an outside force or an inside decision maker. You can nudge your players in this direction if they are willing by simply having NPCs begin treating one member of the party (usually the high CHA PC) as party leader.

This might not be a bad idea, and has actually started to head a little in this direction. The PC with sympathies towards the BBEG is the high-Cha PC.

Lack of clear focus. This doesn't seem to be a problem for you in the big picture dept - you've got a BEBG that's "known," and from the sound of things the PCs are already headed for a showdown with him. However, your sidetreks have some very personal connotations, and that may be playing havoc with the party. "I need to find my sister," "No I need to find my Dad," But my ex is now working for the badguy!" All of these are "must do it now" missions. What could help is to place one of these PCs in more serious danger by upping the ante (perhaps the father is going to be executed instead of just imprisoned). This gives the PCs a more clear cut decision when it comes time to decide where to go next.

Tried this...unfortunately didn't work. The PC whose father is implicated in the BBEG's scheme is set to be executed in one month's time as a traitor to the crown. The plot is disintegrating because no one can agree on what is the best course of action in combating the charges against the PCs father. He is being held by a LN(G) nation, and the character wants to stay within the boundaries of the law so that his father (a noble) will retain his lands and title once they exonerate him.

Players/PC that don't "get" how much of a bad mofo a BEBG is can be a problem. You can handle this in a few ways:
- The BEBG's lieutenant comes calling - a henchman comes to deliver a very violent message, or attempts to remove the PC thorn from the BEBG's side
- The simulacrum - a play on the above, but the BEBG sends a simulacrum of himself. That should give the PC's pause, especially if the fight is very, very tough. It can provide and "OMG he's easily twice as powerful as that" moment.
- Shake the pillars of heaven - Maybe the BEBG's evil plot has visible and far reaching effects (like,to draw on Krynn's literature, constellations turn up missing) that give the "OMG I didn;t think he was that close to finishing!" moment.

I did just send in an agent of the BBEG who slaughtered one of the PCs outright (save a revivify by the cleric, as my campaign doesn't allow standard resurrection spells) as a warning that their course of action was a bad one. I think they got the message about that particular course of action being a bad one in the BBEG's eyes... however, I don't necessarily want them NOT to pursue it.

My problem is that I'm walking a very thin line of trying to force the PCs to act without necessarily closing off any avenues to them by railroading them in a particular direction. My initial idea is to show them just how far the plot goes, because they don't truly understand just how long ago the BBEG set this plan in motion, and I don't think they understand why they are the ones involved. This plot began before most of them were born, and actually involved some of their fathers and forefathers. I also don't think they understand just how far ahead of them the BBEG is, and how much he knows that they don't think he knows.

How much can I get away with revealing, in the esteemed opinions of you ENWorlders, without totally defeating the players/characters and/or killing my game which is going very well other than this slow-down in decision making?

 

[Treebore]

In the long run it is best to feed them one thread at a time. I often have a NPC in the party that I use when they spend too long doing things like this. My NPC is a "run in the background" kind of NPC, but when they get stuck they can talk to him (IE the DM) and I can guide them as to how I would like things to go.

There are a number of other reaswons to have a "DM PC", such as making sure the party has the right resources at the right time because the NPC picked them up. You have to be careful with things like thsi though. Having the DM PC solving too many things leads to player issues you do not want to have.

So if you use the DM NPC make sure it stays in the background. You know your doing it right when the players forget he is even there/in the party/in the game. Also, do not make the DM PC as powerful as the other PC's. Definitely do not make him more powerful. It is very much a "supporting Role/character". Plus he is a way for you to talk to the players and give them guidance within the game itself, and many other things helpful to you as the DM.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Prune the plot tree and lead by the nose

If you have too many options for them to pursue, its time to either shut some of those options down, or at least render them non viable for the time being. The notion is that "Crap, we spent too much time not doing anything, and its too late". Just start the game off with a visitation from the now dead NPC's spirit.

The other thing worth doing is to lead them by the nose a bit. Players tend to suck at making decisions regarding what they should do next when confronted with a handfull of choices. But they are great at reacting to whatever is happening right 'now'.

What I would do is have one of the BBEG leutenants use a magical sending saying "I want that artifact you hid. You have 2 days to get to ( insert location ) or I kill all your missing family members". This will get some sort of immediate response. If the bad guy does not get any response in a timely fashion, have him teleport the severed head of one of the missing family members to the players. If you want to be very immediate about getting things moving, providea magical gate and give the players exactly 5 minutes to comply before for the family member is executed.

Some general suggestions.

- Have all missing family members brought together in one location
- force an ultimatum that requires immediate response
- Create an encounter where the players can fight the BBEG and get beaten without a permanant TPK. Use a Deus Ex Machina of an old ally teleporting them out of the fire if you have to.
- Find a way to inform the players that the BBEG now has all the artifacts except for the one that they hid.

In any campaign that runs past a certain point, the hardest thing to do is keep the players on task. I think the real problem is that you introduced both a ticking clock and a number of choices in what to do, and enough time to do half of the side quests.

I only use a ticking clock in my plots to force the players to act in a timely fashion, perhaps acting without resting after every fight. Or to force a choice of one course of action instead of another. A big problem is that since the players have secured the artifact, they can afford to dawdle and still manage to win.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Wardo]

A big problem is that since the players have secured the artifact, they can afford to dawdle and still manage to win.

I agree. Either use the ultimatum suggestion above, or just send a (likely) overwhelming force to take the artifact back (some traitor among the heroes could reveal its location). Nothing breaks a stall like having your heroes reacting rather than acting. Then they either recover from this setback, or make it clear they should jump to one of the other more vital plotlines before everything falls apart.

 

[Schmoe]

It sounds to me like it may be time to force their hand. I would figure out which thread you feel leads to the best adventure and then have the action come to them. Throw some combat and adversaries their way, and give them a clear, immediate course of action to deal with the root cause. Most of your ties and hooks are long-term, or nebulous, and require some planning to pursue. By giving the party an "easy" avenue that also directly threatens them, you'll make the decision easier for the party.

One example might be a group of assassins, commissioned by the PC's old flame, who have been instructed to kill all but the involved PC and determine if the party knew of any other artifacts. If the PC's capture and interrogate an assassin, they find out that the BBEG has learned the location of the hidden artifact and is moving on it right now. Even if they kill all the assassins, they find some identifying possession or mark that tells them the old flame was behind the attack. There should be some clue that the old flame is very nearby, making it easy for the party to pursue her. If the party doesn't track down the old flame, more attacks follow with increasing frequency, and they start to hear that their associates are "disappearing" as the assassins try to get closer to the party. Eventually, the PCs either track down the old flame and confront her, or they learn that their artifact has been retaken.

The key to making it work is to have the encounters come to the group, so even if they prefer to spend the entire session discussing issues, they still get involved in the action.

 

[Gold Roger]

I think there's three points:

-The PC's are overwhelmed. You say the PC's don't quite know how much the enemy is out of their league. I'd say their current actions very much show them as people that are totally certain they are out of their league. They are often thinking about fleeing, they are paralised with the realisation that whatever they do will end with terrible consequences.

-The PC's need a friend, badly. A campaign where there are many greys and enemies are great, but there has to be a counterpoint. I'm not talking about archmage McMighty comming up, but there have to be some friends. Some farmers that offer them a place to hide or a cleric of a small chappel. There have to be others that know of a plot so terrible and big in scope and work against it. Again, not archmage McMighty, but perhaps there's some toady in the enemy ranks that doesn't exactly like "where this is going". He's still an evil bastard and to scared to act himself, but given the chance he might want to play some info/help into the PC's hand. Maybe there's another adventuring group of lower level working against the BBEG. Or an loose order of valiant young paladins, that would gladly sacrifice themself to act as diversion for some plan of the players. The point is, why would the PC's want to save something where everybody else is a utter bastard? (believe me, I had a campaign break down because of exactly this issue- instead of heroes I ended up with a bunch of bloodthirsty slayers)

-It's time for a ninja attack.
I'm only half joking. The playerss are frustrated with their situation and pacing has slowed to a crawl. The best way to regain a good pacing is some good old asskicking.

My tip?

Show them the light at the end of the tunnel.

First of I'd regain the pace by bringing in some good old asskicking for righteousness. Have the PC's fight something that isn't connected to the BBEG for a change. My suggestion is marauding orcs attacking a friendly village. Not very imaginative, but it works to regain some altitude, this is nothing you want to base you campaign on, after all.

After the orcs have been liberately kicked, put in some time for fluffy towels. One or two days spend in a village with friendly and helpfull-though powerless- goodfolks should do wonders for their self esteem and perspective. They've had a success and they will be remembered what they are fighting for, what would be lost if the BBEG's plan succeded. They should realise that protecting this village from marauding orcs is just the same as protecting this and all simmilar villages from the BBEGs dreams of tyrrany.

You might want to go further and thereafter have them defeat some real minor BBEG with some info and hints on the most pressing issues of the campaign.

These things together will hopefully let your campaign catch new wind.

Other than that you might want to just talk to your players about the campaign-what they like, what they'd like to do, what they fear and what frustrates them.

A campaign with hard consequences, true villains, free player action and many branches is great, I'd venture saying for me it's the best kind of campaign. But to really make it work, there have to be some extra mechanisms.

 

[an_idol_mind]

Pick up the pace a bit. Don't let the players discuss every little option. When things do start dragging on, have someone kick in the door and try to kill them (either literally or metaphorically). They'll learn to think on their feet if they realize that they don't have the luxury of time to determine every action.