I hate monks

[el-remmen]

I created several different orders of monks with different martial arts "styles" and different abilities for my setting.

Check it here: http://aquerra.wikispaces.com/Monks

and here: http://aquerra.wikispaces.com/Monk+Characters

and the examples are here: http://aquerra.wikispaces.com/Monks+of+Anubis

here:http://aquerra.wikispaces.com/Order+of+the+Jackals+Skull

here: http://aquerra.wikispaces.com/The+Silent+Sisters

and here: http://aquerra.wikispaces.com/The+Sojourners

 

[CronoDekar]

While I can understand the problem with the flavor, for some reason it's never struck me as too Asian. Not sure why really, I just throw in monastaries into places with a high degree of lawfulness, and the flavor kinda works itself out. Tempted to take out the specifically Asian weapons though, or at least replace them with similar equipment that has some other flavor.

Samurai and ninja though, now those are too Asian for me. And I like the ninja class!

 

[Psion]

My "flavor distaste" had nothnig to do with "Asian-ness" AFAIAC, that is a total non-issue. Some fantasy settings barely resemble Europe to begin with, and it's not hard at all to picture the history that lead to monastic martial artists in east Asia to arise in a similar fashion in fantasy settings whose histories, to be frank, do not resemble Europe's at all.

My problem with the flavor of the monk is that it represents a specific subtype of martial artists -- the spiritual, disciplined monastic martial artists. Other martial artists types like unarmed duelists and back-alley practitioners sort of elude the class. And that's a shame.

 

[BSF]

I recently banished monks from my gameworld. I replaced the unarmed combat role with the Martial Artist from Beyond Monks. Now I am working on including the armor feats from FFG's Wildscapes so Fighters can choose to be better with armor as well. I will likely homebrew a couple of new feats that are fighter specific as well. This will give me the armor bound fighter as one option and the armorless fighter as another.

Admittedly, I could just lift the Unfettered and the Warmain from AU, but not all of my players have access to AU.

 

[ForceUser]

I like monks. I've played a number of them. I like their array of abilities, and I like reinventing them. My monk characters have included the humble friar, the shadowy vigilante, the ascetic imam, and in a Greyhawk game, the grappler of Kord.

People get too wrapped up in the names of things. Not all rogues are thieves, and not all monks are Kung Fu fighters.

 

[MadMaxim]

It's different because druid, barbarian or paladin all fit a Western Medieval D&D campaign.

Ninja, monk, samurai all fit an Oriental D&D camapign.


Personally, I'm OK with an unarmed warrior. But the core monk comes with a lot of Shaolin flavor. Mouseferatu is right that a DM or player can work against type and retcon the abilities to be enpowered by something else, but some people would prefer that the monk came without so much intrinsic "flavor". You have to change the monk weapons as well. And the always Lawful sticks in my craw.

By the way:
Pugilism/Boxing is a Martial Art. What weapons would you give him (nunchucks seem out of place). Also, how do his attacks become lawful?

Capoeira is a Martial Art. same problem as above.

Didn't Native Americans have their own wrestling style?


Personally, I'd have kept the core monk with good saves, d8 hit dice, 4 skill points, improving damage, increasing speed, removed special monk weapons, given them good BAB, and replaced funky Ki abilities with bonus feats (with said Ki abilities as a subset in the bonus feat list).

I think the Battle Dancer from Dragon Compendium would fit capoeira fighting style really well.

 

[Jackelope King]

I always enjoyed the flavor of monks (the lightly armed-and-armored mystical warrior... never understood the supposed conflict between "eastern and western flavor" in a world that has nothing to do with our own history), but while the mechanics have improved, they're not great (because all of their mystical abilities are mandatory).

So I gave them a little overhaul. Thank God for psionics (even if I also eventually did make a divine variant). Skirmish instead of flurry of blows and improved unarmed damage, psionic powers instead of those mystical abilities, and everything was peachy, both in flavor and mechanics.

 

[iwatt]

People get too wrapped up in the names of things. Not all rogues are thieves, and not all monks are Kung Fu fighters.

I agree. I remembered once I was building a duelist. His backstory was that he was a disgraced noble. The build was rogue/fighter/barbarian. I got flamed when I said my noble fencer had barbarian levels. I was more intertsted in the extra speed and Uncanny Dodge synergies, and I changed the flavor of the rage to an adrenalin rush. But some people can't see beyond class names.

But I insist, the monk does have a lot of built in flavor in his abilities. I've built the Lord of the Jungle Martial artist, and a lot of the abilities can have their flavor changed. But others just don't fit.

My monk characters have included the humble friar, the shadowy vigilante, the ascetic imam, and in a Greyhawk game, the grappler of Kord.

Nice.

But the Grappler of kord wasn't lawful I hope?

 

[SWBaxter]

I too hated the monk, until I realized the real problem I had was with the name.

Bingo! I became a lot happier with the Monk after I played Arcana Unearthed, which has Oathsworn. Abilities very similar to the Monk, similar role, but the name makes it work for me. Change the name, handwave a different explanation for the special abilities, and it's all good. Since the original inspiration for the Monk was actually Remo Williams and Chiun, from the Destroyer series, and since they resemble historical shao-lin monks about as closely as Captain America resembles historical WWII soldiers, I don't find the class very closely coupled to oriental settings at all.

 

[ForceUser]

I've built the Lord of the Jungle Martial artist, and a lot of the abilities can have their flavor changed. But others just don't fit.



Nice.

But the Grappler of kord wasn't lawful I hope?

Nope, he was chaotic. In Complete Divine, under the Sacred Fist description, it says that DMs should feel free to introduce non-lawful monks. I agree that as written, the monk's abilities seem rigid--that said, there's nothing wrong with giving him ki fist (chaotic) instead of lawful, and swapping other abilities with similar powers that better suit an individual concept. And there as enough prestige classes out there--Fist of Zuoken, Enlightened Fist, Tattooed Monk--to sculpt any monk into the concept that you want without reinventing the wheel, like several of our comrades in this thread have chosen to do. Not to mention multiclassing, substitution levels, and feats like Ascetic Rogue. The class has plenty of flexibility if these options are allowed. Again, it's important to look at the options offered without getting wrapped up in names.