D&D 4E Hybrid Classes - applying a 4e concept to 5e

[FrogReaver]

Hybrid classes in 4e were a way of mixing classes without doing it a level at a time as multiclassing requires. Hybrids generally ended up stronger than single classed characters but not usually by much. I don't mind that happening in 5e either. Also slass defining features are gained from both characters but typically at a reduced effectiveness. To prevent picking and choosing abilities you must keep the "hybrid class levels so close together".

A simple example would be a Barbarian Fighter hybrid.

At level 1 you will count as a level 1 Barbarian and a level 1 fighter and you get all weapon and spellcasting focus proficiencies and the lowest tier of armor that either class gets. (I'm unsure how shields should be handled). Take the average of the hit die rounded down so a d12 and d10 would be a d10.

Rage is the barbarians class defining feature. You get 1 use of it per day. 2nd wind is what is going to be considered the fighter's defining ability. Then you pick either fighter or barbarian and gain the rest of their abilities for that level. So unarmored defense or a fighting style.

At level 2 you must choose barbarian or fighter. The only gain the level 2 abilities of your choice. In my example I am going to choose fighter for action surge.

At level 3 you must choose barbarian or fighter. I will choose barbarian now. I get a subclass choice from the barbarian subclasses. I pick one and gain those abilities. Also my rage uses at barbarian 3 should be 3. However I started with 1 less and so I now just have 2 uses. If I had picked fighter instead I would still have 1 rage use.

At level 4 I get an ASI by choosing fighter.

At level 5 I get extra attack by choosing barbarian.

At level 6 I choose fighter for the extra ASI (his level 6 ability and thus I bypass my 2nd barbarian subclass feature).

etc.

How does this concept sound? Thoughts opinions concerns? Can we do it with spellcasting and other abilities?

 

[LordEntrails]

Unnecessarily complicated? What character concept does this address that RAW multi-classing doesn't?

 

[FrogReaver]

Unnecessarily complicated? What character concept does this address that RAW multi-classing doesn't?

Any concept you want to actually play before 5th level...

Multiclassing pre level 5 is very bad.

 

[Rellott]

It worked for 4e because there were few class features at levels after 1... you got to pick powers, and the hybrid got a bunch of options but had to bounce back and forth. In 5e, you’re almost describing regular multiclassing, but your way could create problems if a class has a feature that builds on an earlier one you didn’t take. That’s a level you no longer get to pick - you have to take the class feature that doesn’t reference a feature you don’t have. It could be made to work, but does indeed sound really complex and could result in some seriously broken (for better or worse) character power levels. I loved 4e for its munchkin-ability, but leave the munchkin in 4e. Don’t invite it to 5e. 5e is the simple edition.

 

[FrogReaver]

It worked for 4e because there were few class features at levels after 1... you got to pick powers, and the hybrid got a bunch of options but had to bounce back and forth. In 5e, you’re almost describing regular multiclassing, but your way could create problems if a class has a feature that builds on an earlier one you didn’t take. That’s a level you no longer get to pick - you have to take the class feature that doesn’t reference a feature you don’t have. It could be made to work, but does indeed sound really complex and could result in some seriously broken (for better or worse) character power levels. I loved 4e for its munchkin-ability, but leave the munchkin in 4e. Don’t invite it to 5e. 5e is the simple edition.

So what exactly was broken about the character I described. If I wanted to be a fighter/barbarian why wouldn't the way I described work better than regular 5e multiclassing?

 

[Rellott]

Assuming you don’t run into features that reference features you didn’t pick, you’re basically getting to pick and choose the best features from two classes that may have different power curves, resulting in unintended and unexpected synergies. Multiclassing ensures an even progression in both classes with a reasonable trade off/penalty (you don’t make it to the highest levels in either class).
Classes were not designed to allow you to have the 19th level barb feature and the 20th level fighter feature. 10/10? Yes. 9/11, 8/12, 7/13, 6/14, etc? Sure.

 

[FrogReaver]

Assuming you don’t run into features that reference features you didn’t pick, you’re basically getting to pick and choose the best features from two classes that may have different power curves, resulting in unintended and unexpected synergies. Multiclassing ensures an even progression in both classes with a reasonable trade off/penalty (you don’t make it to the highest levels in either class).
Classes were not designed to allow you to have the 19th level barb feature and the 20th level fighter feature. 10/10? Yes. 9/11, 8/12, 7/13, 6/14, etc? Sure.

Except that's kept at bay by requiring you to pick a feature of your level and not getting to go back AND by requiring you keep the 2 classes abilities relatively close, say 1-2 "levels" apart.

 

[Rellott]

What’s kept at bay by that? I was already assuming you picked a feature of your level. I’m not clear on what you mean by 1-2 levels apart, but I did say that you would wind up with high level features from both classes. It’s balanced to have the first 10 levels from two classes. I’m less confident it’s balanced to have the best 10 levels from two classes.

 

[FrogReaver]

What’s kept at bay by that? I was already assuming you picked a feature of your level. I’m not clear on what you mean by 1-2 levels apart, but I did say that you would wind up with high level features from both classes. It’s balanced to have the first 10 levels from two classes. I’m less confident it’s balanced to have the best 10 levels from two classes.

Anything that concerns you in the fighter barbarian example past level 10?

 

[Rellott]

One thing that sticks out to me quickly would be the synergy of Brutal Critical with the Champion fighter’s increased critical range and the fighter’s extra attacks. Also concerning would be the Survivor’s regen paired with rage’s resistance that would make the character ridiculously difficult to kill.