How Visible To players Should The Rules Be?

[Micah Sweet]

Sometimes it might be like that if it is about more obscure knowledge, but many things you just know or don't instantly.

See, I wouldn't roll for those things, because the outcome isn't in doubt.

 

[Maxperson]

An interesting consequence of this that you don't see discussed much is the permanence and broader impact of the failed roll.
"Roll Arcana to see if you recognize the sigils."
If the player rolls and fails, we have established something new in the fiction: the PC does not recognize sigils of this sort. Does that mean that from then onward, that PC is not even allowed a roll when coming across sigils of the same sort (for arguments sake, let's say they are protection runes). What does that say about the PC's training and/or expertise? Were they never taught protection runes? Does that limit the available spells they can learn?

I've always looked at like this. I'm sure we've all encountered something that is on the edge of our memory or that we just don't recognize right away. Later on we realize, "Oh, wait! It was X!"

Just because the wizard misses the arcana roll the first time, doesn't mean that the second set of protection runes found three hours later won't jog his memory in a way that the first didn't. Or maybe it takes both sets to get him to realize what this one is. If a good amount of time has passed in game, then the new roll could also represent knowledge gained "off screen."

 

[James Gasik]

Anyone remember the days of old where if you failed certain checks (like opening a lock), you couldn't try again until you leveled up (or in the case of learning spells, raised your Intelligence)?

I always wondered what it was like being a locksmith in a world like that. "Well, I tried to unlock your door, so I guess there's no choice but to break the window."

 

[Crimson Longinus]

See, I wouldn't roll for those things, because the outcome isn't in doubt.

I’m taking about simple facts that you usually either know or don’t, no much pondering involved, but what’s in doubt whether you know it in the first place.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I’m taking about simple facts that you usually either know or don’t, no much pondering involved, but what’s in doubt whether you know it in the first place.

I honestly don't quite follow. If you know a simple fact, you shouldn't have to roll IMO. Instead you and the DM work put whether or not you would know it. You roll when an agreement can't be reached, or when it is determined that there's no certainty there (ie, you might know, but its obscure and far from certain you would remember). In that case, you roll because you have to think about it and search your memory.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I honestly don't quite follow. If you know a simple fact, you shouldn't have to roll IMO. Instead you and the DM work put whether or not you would know it. You roll when an agreement can't be reached, or when it is determined that there's no certainty there (ie, you might know, but its obscure and far from certain you would remember). In that case, you roll because you have to think about it and search your memory.

I really don't get what you don't get. If I see the flag of Sweden, I don't need to ponder what it is, I just know. If I see the flag of Gabon, no pondering will help, I don't know what it is. But if this is a character, we probably have not established which flags I recognise from top of my head, thus it is uncertain, and we might want to roll for it.

What this means in practice, that often I don't wait the player to say that they try to recognise a thing. Once the character perceives the thing, it might be enough to trigger the roll to see whether they recognise it. This to me more accurately reflects how memory works.

 

[Maxperson]

Anyone remember the days of old where if you failed certain checks (like opening a lock), you couldn't try again until you leveled up (or in the case of learning spells, raised your Intelligence)?

I always wondered what it was like being a locksmith in a world like that. "Well, I tried to unlock your door, so I guess there's no choice but to break the window."

I never liked that rule since it took so long to level up and your chances to actually open a lock was so low. It always seem to me that luck could change or you might just do better next time. This was backed up by me trying to open my locked front door with a credit card and succeeding sometimes, but failing other times. Same door. Same credit card. Different skill "rolls."

Those attempts by me convinced me that re-rolls were possible, but also that failure at the time is also possible, so infinite retries were also not the right way to go. At the time I didn't figure out a solution, but it occurs to me now that maybe one attempt per point of int or dex bonus is the way to go.

 

[Maxperson]

I really don't get what you don't get. If I see the flag of Sweden, I don't need to ponder what it is, I just know. If I see the flag of Gabon, no pondering will help, I don't know what it is. But if this is a character, we probably have not established which flags I recognise from top of my head, thus it is uncertain, and we might want to roll for it.

What this means in practice, that often I don't wait the player to say that they try to recognise a thing. Once the character perceives the thing, it might be enough to trigger the roll to see whether they recognise it. This to me more accurately reflects how memory works.

I do this, but add in auto success or failure based on where the PC is from. If it's a neighboring country or a major player(China, England, Russia, etc.), I'm just going to tell the player what the flag is without a roll. The flag of some obscure 2 mile square country like you might find in the middle of Europe will likely just a flat no.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I do this, but add in auto success or failure based on where the PC is from. If it's a neighboring country or a major player(China, England, Russia, etc.), I'm just going to tell the player what the flag is without a roll.

Sure, obviously. And DCs (and autofails and autosuccesses) are based on the task, and the same objective might be a different task to different people. To me recognising the flag of Sweden is recognising a flag of a neighbouring country, whereas recognising the flag of Gabon is recognising a flag of a distant country. But to a person from Cameroon these tasks would be reversed.

 

[Thomas Shey]

5e D&D has a number of such abilities - the Shield spell is one of them; the battle master's Precision Strike is another.

So when you say "nothing should be allowed to do this thing that is pretty standard in 5e", what do you take the normative force of your pronouncement to be? Aren't you the person who's always telling us that D&D is the lingua franca and the starting point.

(That's before we get to the fact that this is a RPG General thread, and so the relevance of the billion other RPGs that resemble 5e in this respect at least cannot be ruled out.)

Let's be honest: Its Lanefan. Its his personal taste presented as a quasi-universal virtue.