How to Legally Overcome Flatfooted

[William_2]

“I have a problem with opponents racing through 12 PCs and attacking the PC Wizard, EVEN THOUGH all 12 PCs were anticipating that action.

This silliness only occurs on round one. On round two, it no longer happens.”

I’m not sure I understand this- it seems like something that could happen in any round, to me. I mean, someone moves and attacks on their turn. Maybe there are AOO, or maybe there is tumbling- whatever. If there is a path to the PC Wizard, on any round an opponent may well take that path and attack. I don’t see how this is a fault of round one at all. Perhaps the opponent acts first. Perhaps they don’t, but still do this same thing on their turn. The initiative system is really done performing before anyone acts, rather than being a part of what actions are taken, to me.

 

[silentspace]

The only thing that really bothers me is the surprise round charge. Seems to me like you shouldn't be able to do that. A charge and a full attack are generally better than firing ranged weapons in a surprise round and in a first round. It gets worse if there's some sort of pounce or improved grab ability.

 

[drnuncheon]

Is it reasonable to do this when you are outside a dungeon door and expect enemies within?

Is it reasonable to do this when you are guarding the King?

It's reasonable to 'be ready' - but that's what the surprise round is all about. If you're expecting trouble, then your enemy won't get a surprise round on you - but they might still act before you can react - your attention wavered for a moment, or you misread them. But if you allow someone to declare ready actions outside of combat, then the advantage always goes to the person who reacts, instead of the person who acts.

There should be a chance that the assassin is able to (say) whip out his crossbow and shoot the king before anyone reacts, just as there should be a chance that the king's loyal bodyguard is able to jump in front of the monarch or cut down the assassin. So the question is, how do you determine which of those possibilities occurs?

J

 

[Bastoche]

The flat-footed point of view is irrelevant. Suppose they are not flat-footed but still lost initiative. They are not armed! Even not flat-footed, they could not get AoO because they wouldn't even threaten the areas surrounding them. Except monks.

I personnally think it is not a problem that a thief (or anyone for that matter) can run around the battlefield in the first round because he won initiative. The flat-footed scheme represents the lack of coordination between the flat-footed guy vs the one acting.

I do not believe the RAW allows to overcome flat-footedness beside specific feats/ability that allows it (uncanny dodge, combat reflexes). Anything else is house ruling. Even with uncanny dodge, if your weapon is sheathed, you can't be allowed an AoO (unless improved unarmed strike).

 

[KarinsDad]

How are they racing through 12 PCs?

Note that you can't charge unless you have a straight line, so the windy, twisting path they are following still has to be shorter than a single move - and they still only get one attack at the end of it.

If you are in the Thieves Guild, everyone is aware of everyone else. Hence, no surprise round (or, maybe a Spot roll to notice one thief attempting to kill the Wizard). If everyone makes their Spot roll (or the DM declares that there is no surprise because everyone is aware of everyone else and expecting an attack), then you roll initiative and are in round one.

One thief decided to attack the Wizard. He wins initiative.

. 1 2 3 4 5 6
T . . . . . . . W
. 7 8 9101112

Now granted, 12 is a bit of an exaggeration, but it can be done. The Thief (T) here moves on round one past all 12 of the Wizard's (W) PC allies and attacks. Nobody can stop him because they cannot AoO while flatfooted. And, he gets sneak attack damage against the Wizard as well.

Even though everyone was ready for this and in normal combat rounds (i.e. after round one) it cannot happen without other factors (such as Tumbling or PCs out of AoO attempts or whatever).

In fact, this is the opposite of what should happen. In combat, the other PCs should be distracted by other opponents and have LESS of a chance of stopping the thief. But, instead they have less of a chance (i.e. zero if they did not win initiative and do not have Combat Reflexes) when they are prepared for an attack and not yet distracted by other opponents.


And I think the example of the King with his guards is better. Sure, they could have Combat Reflexes and avoid the problem, but that's not really the point.

A high level normal Guard (i.e. without Combat Reflexes) who trained for combat all of his life and is prepared for an attack helplessly watches as the disguised Assassin runs 30 feet and kills the King. The Assassin can move 30 feet and attack before the Guard can try to stop him, trip him or whatever. Even though the Guard was pointing his halberd at the disguised Assassin, too bad. The Assassin wins.

That's not what happens in real life combat and that is why it is a bit nonsensical.

 

[Bastoche]

The point is "A high level normal Guard (i.e. without Combat Reflexes) who trained for combat all of his life and is prepared for an attack" learned combat reflexes. That's exactly what he trained for all his life. Else, the king would hire someone else.

As to the 12 guys aforementionned, sheathed weapons means the rogue sneak attack past them anyway (see my post two prior this one). And if the goal is to block attacks (protect the wizard) they should circle the wizard in question. The rogue could always shoot daggers and or arrows on him anyway. Wheter he runs or not is irrelevant. He won initiative, he gets a sneak attack.

It seems to me the gripe is more about SA than flat-footedness. Isn't it? In order to have the rogue balance out with other character classes, he is granted a sneak attack if he win initiative.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

. 1 2 3 4 5 6
T . . . . . . . W
. 7 8 9101112

Oh, OK. We're talking about Encounters in Contrivedville. Gotcha.

Well, how about:

.........147X
T.....25W!
.........369@

In this case, the poor thief wins initiative, and can't ever attack the wizard at all (where X=10, !=11, and @=12).

And I think the example of the King with his guards is better. Sure, they could have Combat Reflexes and avoid the problem, but that's not really the point.

There's your problem. You see "Combat Reflexes and avoid the problem," I see "Improved Initiative and Combat Reflexes and be trained Royal Guardsmen."

You see a problem. I see an opportunity for certain characters to be skilled in ways others are not.

A high level normal Guard (i.e. without Combat Reflexes) who trained for combat all of his life and is prepared for an attack helplessly watches as the disguised Assassin runs 30 feet and kills the King.

...

That's not what happens in real life combat and that is why it is a bit nonsensical.

Of course it's nonsensical. You've got a bug in your descriptive programming. How you should have described it is:

A group of well-trained soldiers are standing around, watching the crowd that has gathered for the royal audience, hands resting on the hilts of their swords. They scan the crowd actively, searching for possible threats, but who are they kidding, really? They weren't trained for this. They should all be out on the front lines, fighting the Karrnathi hordes in hand-to-hand combat. Sure, the chances of death and injury are higher, but sometimes, after the third hour of farmers complaining about lost sheep and merchants applying for licenses to sell who-knows-what, you'd accept a spear in the ribs just to make things more interesting. Yep, another boring day. Well, at least the noblewomen are attractive, and the recent influences of Brelish fashion have a certain "less-is-more" style that's definately appealing, not that any of them would give you the time of ... Hey ... Wait - what's he ... !

And with a flash, the Assassin had thrown off his concealing cloak and covered the 20 paces between the Supplicant's Stage and the throne, a dagger appearing seemingly out of nowhere. The guards reached for their weapons, but they each knew in their heart of hearts that they were too late. They'd been distracted, unprepared, undertrained - whatever the cause, they were too late, and their king would soon be dead.

 

[atom crash]

That's not what happens in real life combat and that is why it is a bit nonsensical.

Trying to reconcile real-world situations and game mechanics is just going to make you go crazy sometimes.

We're playing a complicated form of rock-scissors-paper here, where certain powers/abilities trump others, and are balanced by other powers/abilities that trump them in turn. Without the surprise round, the strengths of the rogue class would be seriously negated, and no one in their right mind would want to play a rogue.

A high level normal Guard (i.e. without Combat Reflexes) who trained for combat all of his life and is prepared for an attack helplessly watches as the disguised Assassin runs 30 feet and kills the King. The Assassin can move 30 feet and attack before the Guard can try to stop him, trip him or whatever. Even though the Guard was pointing his halberd at the disguised Assassin, too bad. The Assassin wins

Feats and class abilities simulate special training. The ever-vigilant guards who are specially trained for throne room detail are the ones with Combat Reflexes and Alertness. The high level normal guards don't receive the honor of guarding their liege lord in his seat of power. They are standing atop watch towers at the kingdom borders or patrolling city streets.

And if the king surrounds himself with guards who can't spot a suspicious character approaching within 30 feet of their king, I figure he had it coming anyway.

Edit: Patryn said it way more eloquently than I did.

 

[Arnwyn]

I’m not sure I understand this- it seems like something that could happen in any round, to me. I mean, someone moves and attacks on their turn. Maybe there are AOO, or maybe there is tumbling- whatever. If there is a path to the PC Wizard, on any round an opponent may well take that path and attack. I don’t see how this is a fault of round one at all. Perhaps the opponent acts first. Perhaps they don’t, but still do this same thing on their turn. The initiative system is really done performing before anyone acts, rather than being a part of what actions are taken, to me.

I think his problem is that you don't get an attack of opportunity when you're flat-footed (first round of combat until you act) - even if you were aware of everyone around you and anticipating a possible attack.

 

[Bastoche]

Just to add to Pat's thief guild scenario, even if they were a total of four, being at least 40ft away from the T:
..................1
T................2...W
..................3

Where the Wizards stands a respectful 5 to 10 ft away from the his 3 companions will not allow the thief to get a move and an attack in one round.