How should I respond to my DM?

[kitsune9]

NOW THEN ON TO THE ISSUE: after gaining all of this power and ability, my DM (who agreed in all this because we settled it all, as well as the "lets makes the gods cower" plot of a divine scourge) and now he is consistently denying things like that, as well as coming up with bull**** excuses to keep us from doing something (such as encountering a deity whom she could use magic on and then saying "the spell just doesn't work" when it would) he's also even violated divine stats with the familiar by saying things work on her that wouldn't. we're all getting a bit irritated with how he's treating our characters now, and I want some other opinions on how to handle this reasonably with getting angry.....and so sorry for the grievously long post.

Sounds like a DM who poorly planned the campaign and the power levels for the players. The DM shouldn't punish you guys for having broken characters, but instead should create the appropriate challenges for you in order to drive the story forward. Usually DM's who are not prepared, not knowledgeable of the rules, or similar lack of understanding of the game, can fall into this kind of behavior. The opposite is to give you a cakewalk too.

Another issue that could be here is that the DM is probably doing the campaign out of his own ego or self-importance. It's the whole, "I'm the DM therefore I'm god and you're my pawns" kind of syndrome.

Either way, you're in for a rough time, because your expectations will not get met unless the DM wakes up and smells the coffee.

 

[Sammael]

There is no "knowledge of the rules" that would enable any DM in the world to run this campaign. Because this is basically a diceless campaign with characters who make RIFTS characters look like prepubescents. And that takes some doing.

My advice: drop this campaign. This is not playable as a "game" by any stretch of imagination. Do a collective creative writing project and write a book instead.

 

[Wicht]

I keep thinking that Amber seems like a better game system for this group.

 

[Black Omega]

I'll take a different tact here.

It seems like there is a certain lack of trust in the DM in this case. Im the game I normally play in, I've known the DM for years and trust him. So if my level 20 wizard casts a spell that should destroy someone and I get:

DM: The target seems unaffected.

Me: Huh? Why?

DM: You are not sure, you cast the spell properly, it just didn't work on him.

Then I trust the DM is not frelling with me, he's giving me a clue something is going on. It's a plot hook that requires investigation.

Best thing to do is to talk it out, I agree.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

Hey, just asking why people keep suggesting other gaming systems to run something like this. Amber is nice game, but quite different universe, so is Exalted. If you want to run cosmic change game in D&D universe you use D&D universe, right?

Systemwise I agree D&D is not optimal, but I always wind up using it because D&D universe has more inspiration for plots. Seriously Amber is pretty one trick pony, D&D universe is summed up by multiple people's imaginations and writers story not just based on books of fiction.

And it's not even such a great system. I've played lot of Amber and Exalted for the matter and they run different themes. And Planascape IMO was originally created to be planar adventures for more regular if more cororful D&D parties, they could start lv 1, after all. Personally even if there is merit of great ideas regarding Planescape, they are far from original concept of planes for say, World of Greyhawk, and thus for me work better if looked at as different entity.


That kinda epic cosmic plays are not unplayable or not fun, they can be awasome. Yes many people don't like that kinda roleplaying, and they won't even get it. It kinda plays like thinking people's superhero game. Some like those games with big numbers, millions and billions, little like final fantasy damage numbers, and really long final fights. Some do it system light.

Best part of epic games is that world itself evolves and changes around pc:s because of players and plots of DM. And social roleplaying with greater powers offers really interesting role-playing opportunities. And it can be much more different than some familiar greek mythos god-thing.

If people want to look for inspiration Sepulchrave II's long and philosophically heavy story hour and another IMO great writer Shemeska has fun storyhour too, but if you want take look at evil power social life he has created quite a few stories about his npc:s. His game is not as epic as that another one, but his cosmos sure is.

It does need dm. And dm should be main storyteller. At least for me. Some might have learned different ways to play but I am old-fashioned like that. Problem with those games is that people really have to be in same "map" on what they all want from game. And trust issues are really bad, they kill those kinda games. Not far out plots or characters.

There is one more issue that might be affecting dm, I am well aware of that, because it's my groups most typical issue. It's boring for dm to loose all the time. And play those whiny worshipful drooling drones of mortals. It gets old.. fast. This is one reason why it would maybe be best to play no-challenge phase fast and mostly do it by sharing stories. And then skip to phase where you actually start challenging powers that can fight back.

You are basicly asking him play your characters victims for extended time. Some people can handle that. Most think it sucks and they want it to be more complex.

If you don't have trust issues best cure for this is let dm play DMPC who can win, while his npc:s loose. Works for our group when game gets it's walk-over everyhing moments.

 

[Oryan77]

DM: You are not sure, you cast the spell properly, it just didn't work on him.

Then I trust the DM is not frelling with me, he's giving me a clue something is going on. It's a plot hook that requires investigation.

The problem with this group is that the players expect the DM to not even do something like that. The players have told the DM that there is nothing that can come close to challenging them at this stage in the game. So even if the DM wasn't making it up and he really did have a legit reason for the PCs spell not to work, it would not matter to the players.

They are under the impression that they are really in charge, not the DM. Challenging their PCs like that when the players are not ready for it goes against their "script".

The trust issue here is that their DM is actually trying to DM rather than letting the players railroad him into their script. They don't want him to DM, they want him to be a narrator for their script. That's why they don't trust him and are getting mad about it.

 

[Naoki00_]

In what way is this campaign supposed to be fun? Where is the challenge supposed to come from?

Frankly, the very first post had me going, "Ohhh.... Okaayyy..." So, the PCs just happen to start out with all these templates and levels applied rather than having to have earned them through playing the game?!?!?

As a DM, my first response to even the concept of such a campaign would've been a big 'ole "NO - go play Exalted instead if you want that kind of game. Otherwise, you are starting at 0-level. Roll 3d6, in order."

Didn't you state up front in one of your first posts that this was supposed to be a sandbox game? There is nothing sandbox about this. In fact, it is kind of funny because it sounds like a reverse railroad. Rather than the DM railroading the players into following a strict path, the players are railroading the DM to follow an "established plan". There's nothing wrong with that if that is how the group wants to play, but the DM doesn't seem to understand that.


Naw, I think we all understand. I'm just confused because it seems like you say that you want one thing, and then follow it up by saying you don't want that. So yer getting frustrated with your DM when you guys don't even really know what you want from the DM.

It seems like everyone needs to sit down, write out this script on paper, give everyone a copy of the script just like you would do on a movie set, and during the game everyone should read off the script as if you are all actors in a play. Cause that's all yer doing and yer getting mad when the DM is deviating from that script.



Yes, this is the same impression that I get from the group. You can't claim to want a DM to run a world, and then get upset when he's not running it according to your expectations of what should happen. Otherwise, like I keep saying, you don't need a DM. He is serving no purpose at all.

to Wicht: the challenge is in how to do what we set out to do without the guys that CAN beat us, no combat yet, just mental challenges.


and to 3catcircus: no no, they didn't get them through not playing, I made this character years ago. she started as a level 1 human with the paragon template (this is because again, child from Ao himself)..she got the rest over the 8 years of playing in games where she appeared as the villain, gaining power as she went. also personally we're not fans of that low a level campaigns, they can be fun still..but honestly I find they progress in a "I'm so weak that 2 hits from a D6 weapon and I die" manner in our group...we're paranoid and know just how bad things can be in the DnD world (it doesn't bother us too much with certain DM's though of course, because we know they won't be a d***.)

now on to Oryan77: I am sorry if I made it seem that way, I'm not really trying to run myself in circles. yes the game IS a sandbox, if we wanted to do something different then what we just were, we could...the difference is we already know the end of the story, we know what we are going to do to get there, but we don't know HOW we're going to do that, or if we're going to just go straight for the end or do a bunch of stuff for fun... really when I think about it I can explain it fine, but putting into words or type in this case is a bit difficult...our script isn't so much set because we have no timeline for anything we do or an order other then things that would HAVE to be in order...however we've all had the character we do for years, and what they can do is very well established and set, if something could effect them or not, we all know it.

The problem with this group is that the players expect the DM to not even do something like that. The players have told the DM that there is nothing that can come close to challenging them at this stage in the game. So even if the DM wasn't making it up and he really did have a legit reason for the PCs spell not to work, it would not matter to the players.

They are under the impression that they are really in charge, not the DM. Challenging their PCs like that when the players are not ready for it goes against their "script".

The trust issue here is that their DM is actually trying to DM rather than letting the players railroad him into their script. They don't want him to DM, they want him to be a narrator for their script. That's why they don't trust him and are getting mad about it.

well we'd be more alright with it if in the universe the encounters and types of challenged (combat or higher beings) we were in were possible this early, it would be like encountering a bunch of celestial's just walking around in lolths place and enjoying the scenery, it wouldn't make sense in that world based on the worlds canon. If he did really have a legit reason for doing those things, then we would hope he'd reassure us he indeed, had a plan and a way to explain the break of the universes known rules (not the Games rules just..well canon)...we'll trust him on it because he trusts us to roleplay it without using player knowledge. however he has now told us he in fact "didn't have a plan, it sounded like a way to get you to not go here"

 

[Naoki00_]

Hey, just asking why people keep suggesting other gaming systems to run something like this. Amber is nice game, but quite different universe, so is Exalted. If you want to run cosmic change game in D&D universe you use D&D universe, right?

Systemwise I agree D&D is not optimal, but I always wind up using it because D&D universe has more inspiration for plots. Seriously Amber is pretty one trick pony, D&D universe is summed up by multiple people's imaginations and writers story not just based on books of fiction.

And it's not even such a great system. I've played lot of Amber and Exalted for the matter and they run different themes. And Planascape IMO was originally created to be planar adventures for more regular if more cororful D&D parties, they could start lv 1, after all. Personally even if there is merit of great ideas regarding Planescape, they are far from original concept of planes for say, World of Greyhawk, and thus for me work better if looked at as different entity.


That kinda epic cosmic plays are not unplayable or not fun, they can be awasome. Yes many people don't like that kinda roleplaying, and they won't even get it. It kinda plays like thinking people's superhero game. Some like those games with big numbers, millions and billions, little like final fantasy damage numbers, and really long final fights. Some do it system light.

Best part of epic games is that world itself evolves and changes around pc:s because of players and plots of DM. And social roleplaying with greater powers offers really interesting role-playing opportunities. And it can be much more different than some familiar greek mythos god-thing.

If people want to look for inspiration Sepulchrave II's long and philosophically heavy story hour and another IMO great writer Shemeska has fun storyhour too, but if you want take look at evil power social life he has created quite a few stories about his npc:s. His game is not as epic as that another one, but his cosmos sure is.

It does need dm. And dm should be main storyteller. At least for me. Some might have learned different ways to play but I am old-fashioned like that. Problem with those games is that people really have to be in same "map" on what they all want from game. And trust issues are really bad, they kill those kinda games. Not far out plots or characters.

There is one more issue that might be affecting dm, I am well aware of that, because it's my groups most typical issue. It's boring for dm to loose all the time. And play those whiny worshipful drooling drones of mortals. It gets old.. fast. This is one reason why it would maybe be best to play no-challenge phase fast and mostly do it by sharing stories. And then skip to phase where you actually start challenging powers that can fight back.

You are basicly asking him play your characters victims for extended time. Some people can handle that. Most think it sucks and they want it to be more complex.

If you don't have trust issues best cure for this is let dm play DMPC who can win, while his npc:s loose. Works for our group when game gets it's walk-over everyhing moments.

I do relate a bit with the 'playing the victims' bit, it does get old sometimes even if it is fun to embellish in playing them. heres something that does confuse me a bit though he DOES have a PC in the game, he made it a bit less broken then the others, but he said it was because he plays 2 PCs (a catfolk rogue and a catfolk sorcerer that's specialized in buffing spells) in fact he usually bends the rules that we do use (some DC's, rolls for making things, combat for everyone but my character since combat with normal things and her is "I hit it, if it can die, it's probably dead", and social interactions to influence mood and opinion)

While you do use the DnD system mostly for the cosmology and planes, it's also because we've never played other systems..which is partly our fault and partly us just not having been exposed to any of them..no money for books and the like, but the internet has every DnD book as a PDF somewhere, and their much easier to find then other systems usually. I tried playing Warhammer 40K once, but I never had much fun with it as I had to join a group already made and not my usual one..I didn't know anyone nor did I trust them with my character.

 

[Oryan77]

yes the game IS a sandbox, if we wanted to do something different then what we just were, we could...the difference is we already know the end of the story, we know what we are going to do to get there, but we don't know HOW we're going to do that, or if we're going to just go straight for the end or do a bunch of stuff for fun. . . . our script isn't so much set because we have no timeline for anything we do or an order other then things that would HAVE to be in order.

It may not make much of a difference for your situation, but what you are playing is not a sandbox game. I'm sure people can start spouting "interpretations" of what a sandbox or a railroad game is, but minute details doesn't matter.

It's a railroad because things have to run a certain way for your story to play out the way you guys have written it. Just because you have not specified the details between the major scenarios doesn't mean it is a sandbox since you're doing your own stuff in-between. You are forcing the DM to not deviate from a certain "path" (aka railroad) in order for your characters to accomplish what you expect them to accomplish.

PCs can still do their own stuff in-between major scenarios in a railroad game. That doesn't make the game a sandbox just because they had free will during the non important events. They will still be railroaded by the DM to get to the important events. You guys are doing what you want during the in-betweens, but yer railroading the DM into making sure you still end up where you want to be. If it was a true sandbox game, there would be no expectations on what will be happening and you may even fail at your task because NPCs might get lucky and stop you "at this stage in the game". But you are making sure that the DM will not let that happen, which means it is not a sandbox game.

Maybe the DM was under the impression that he was running a sandbox game, which could be why he has done things off script. You just said in your last post that he thought his idea would be "a way to get you to not go here" and you are crying foul about that. But this is definitely a railroaded game; but railroaded by the players (which is actually interesting and something I never thought about happening).

As people have pointed out, this is a very mind boggling game to run. I think the best thing to make this game play out the way you expect is to just do what I mentioned before. Everyone sit around and write out the script on paper just as if you were writing a movie. Tell the DM that these are the things that need to happen and he can't deviate at all from the script. This includes making sure that any NPCs you encounter have no chance to thwart you in any way. Basically tell him that he is not there to DM, he's just there to control NPCs according to the script while you guys run the game.

 

[Wicht]

to Wicht: the challenge is in how to do what we set out to do without the guys that CAN beat us, no combat yet, just mental challenges.

If you already know how things are going to turn out, and its impossible, according to your homebrew rules for you to die, lose, or fail to defeat a foe in combat, then its not really what I would call a challenge - at least its no more challenging than doing a jigsaw puzzle you already have a picture for.

Essentially you are not actually playing a role-playing game, you are engaged in an elaborate creative writing process or some form of free-form role-playing theater. Personally, I wouldn't enjoy such an activity but if you do, then have at it. Still at the same time, if I was DMing for you, I would want it to be an actual game, and I would definitely create opponents you couldn't affect thus forcing you to actually have to think creatively to solve the problem. The idea of a character that can say, "I hit them they are dead" just doesn't appeal to me in any fashion.

Anyway have fun. Talk to your DM. But don't try to force him to make the world run according to your rules unless you would rather run the "game" yourself.