Level Up (A5E) How should cantrips be handled

[tetrasodium]

Having cantrips over expecting casters to be flailing about with their sling light crossbow or whatever was a good thing since it allowed casters to do something magical in the fight on rounds they were not casting a spell. The implementation causes a lot to be desired though because it pretty much removes an important piece of loot (weapons) from being a thing many characters have any reason to care about. Anything that improves cantrips also improves all of that caster's spells unless it's specifically made so it only applies to bob's specific cantrip. Yes those characters can get wands that cast other cantrips or leveled spells, but then you have bob frustrated that he wasted a cantrip slot on firebolt/sacredflame/etc rather than some niche or utility cantrip. On top of all that cantrips scale by level so instead of replacing old outdated gear with cool new stuff as the player levels you have a both a level wizard/sorcerer/cleric saying "I cast firebolt/sacred flame/toll the dead" nearly every round from level 1 to level 20 & the only difference is the number of damage dice.. no extra bolts like extra attack on fighter barbarian bard pally ranger bladelock etc, no interesting twists like tany of the things martials can add to their attack as they level instead of "I swing my sword" every level. There is a whole chapter in the dmg filled with magic weapons that have cool effects like keen disruption smiting terror life stealing wounding adamantine & so much more once you start including weapons with actual spells.

A while back there was a discussion about removing cantrips that got into a lot of the hassles involved in shifting cantrips to be linked to equipment like specific wands & such along with things like keeping the fluff/constructive/utility cantrips as class based things so I wanted to make a poll on this.

Obviously the cantrips for each choice should be balanced for that choice

 

[BookTenTiger]

I love cantrips! They make playing a spellcaster, even at first level, fun. I also like how they define different spellcasters: two wizards or clerics or druids may be very different based on their cantrips.

If we want to make choosing weapons and finding weapon-based loot interesting for spellcasters, I always thought it would be neat to add some complexity to Arcane Foci.

If one magic sword is going to be different from another, could we add Arcane Focuses that have magical and mechanical effects?

 

[Undrave]

Having cantrips over expecting casters to be flailing about with their sling light crossbow or whatever was a good thing since it allowed casters to do something magical in the fight on rounds they were not casting a spell. The implementation causes a lot to be desired though because it pretty much removes an important piece of loot (weapons) from being a thing many characters have any reason to care about. Anything that improves cantrips also improves all of that caster's spells unless it's specifically made so it only applies to bob's specific cantrip. Yes those characters can get wands that cast other cantrips or leveled spells, but then you have bob frustrated that he wasted a cantrip slot on firebolt/sacredflame/etc rather than some niche or utility cantrip. On top of all that cantrips scale by level so instead of replacing old outdated gear with cool new stuff as the player levels you have a both a level wizard/sorcerer/cleric saying "I cast firebolt/sacred flame/toll the dead" nearly every round from level 1 to level 20 & the only difference is the number of damage dice.. no extra bolts like extra attack on fighter barbarian bard pally ranger bladelock etc, no interesting twists like tany of the things martials can add to their attack as they level instead of "I swing my sword" every level. There is a whole chapter in the dmg filled with magic weapons that have cool effects like keen disruption smiting terror life stealing wounding adamantine & so much more once you start including weapons with actual spells.

A while back there was a discussion about removing cantrips that got into a lot of the hassles involved in shifting cantrips to be linked to equipment like specific wands & such along with things like keeping the fluff/constructive/utility cantrips as class based things so I wanted to make a poll on this.

Obviously the cantrips for each choice should be balanced for that choice

Having Cantrip wands feels like the source of the problem IMO. Maybe bring back implements like they were in 4e.

Maybe steal the 4e Wizard's implement mastery and apply it to everybody? Each type of implement granting a specific type of bonus?

 

[TwoSix]

I see no reason to change what's currently in place, although I also have no problems with reworks of classes testing out some different paradigms.

 

[tetrasodium]

Having Cantrip wands feels like the source of the problem IMO. Maybe bring back implements like they were in 4e.

Maybe steal the 4e Wizard's implement mastery and apply it to everybody? Each type of implement granting a specific type of bonus?

I'm not sure I understand you. It sounds like you are saying that a shift to binding attack cantrips to wands rather than competing for cantrips known with utility and fluff cantrips as they are now in 5e is the source of the problem as things in 5e are now?

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

To options:
1) Utility cantrips stay the same.
Attack cantrips are removed and replaced by ''magic weapon'' like the wand/rod/scepters from Pillars of Eternity the full casting classes can use.

2) Keep cantrips, but make them all proficient attack rolls with Dex to-hit for ranged ones, and Str to-hit for the melee ones. Like the weapon cantrips from the SCAG but without the weapon part.

 

[Undrave]

I'm not sure I understand you. It sounds like you are saying that a shift to binding attack cantrips to wands rather than competing for cantrips known with utility and fluff cantrips as they are now in 5e is the source of the problem as things in 5e are now?

No, I would remove cantrip wands. Wands with charges should probably be scaled down too, but that's not here nor there.

Implements (Wands, staves, orbs, rods, tomes, totems, holy symbols etc) in 4e were just like weapons: you could get magic ones that gave you +X to your spell attack rolls (in 4e, the attacker always rolled to affect someone).

The Wizard also had a class feature where they had what were, essentially, arcane focus fighting styles. You had the Staff of Defence that, if I recall, allowed you to add CON to your AC as a reaction (a sort of mini-shield) once per encounter (and in 4e, if you wielded a staff two-handed you got a +1 bonus to AC thanks to its defensive property)... I think there was Orb of Imposition or something like that that made your effects harder to shake off and Wand of Accuracy that, if I recall, let you add your DEX to a spell attack roll? They added more as the edition went on.

This meant that your choice of mastery had an impact on the type of spells you favoured and the items you wanted to find.

We could bring that back in the same mold as Fighting styles and have them only affect cantrips?

 

[tetrasodium]

No, I would remove cantrip wands. Wands with charges should probably be scaled down too, but that's not here nor there.

Implements (Wands, staves, orbs, rods, tomes, totems, holy symbols etc) in 4e were just like weapons: you could get magic ones that gave you +X to your spell attack rolls (in 4e, the attacker always rolled to affect someone).

The Wizard also had a class feature where they had what were, essentially, arcane focus fighting styles. You had the Staff of Defence that, if I recall, allowed you to add CON to your AC as a reaction (a sort of mini-shield) once per encounter (and in 4e, if you wielded a staff two-handed you got a +1 bonus to AC thanks to its defensive property)... I think there was Orb of Imposition or something like that that made your effects harder to shake off and Wand of Accuracy that, if I recall, let you add your DEX to a spell attack roll? They added more as the edition went on.

This meant that your choice of mastery had an impact on the type of spells you favoured and the items you wanted to find.

We could bring that back in the same mold as Fighting styles and have them only affect cantrips?

So... split them, change how they work, still rework classes as seems in the works certain to be happening & he's a couple examples of class changes, but don't call them "cantrips"? I added an option for you

 

[aco175]

You can create a lot of stuff to buff cantrips from abilities to items. A special wand may allow cantrips to push the target 10ft or immobilize the target of shocking grasp for 1 round. There is talk about a prestige class or path that allow you to modify cantrips. Maybe 1 caster class can fire 2 firebolts at 5th level instead of getting 2d10 damage. Make a feat that does cool things like shocking grasp causes the target to grant advantage on the next attack.

I have story events that allow some of this like a boon.

 

[Undrave]

So... split them, change how they work, still rework classes as seems in the works certain to be happening & he's a couple examples of class changes, but don't call them "cantrips"? I added an option for you

No... don't touch cantrips, I just talked about the arcane foci. You'd have the opportunity to get bonus to your cantrips by casting them using the arcane focus you find, just the same way as finding a new weapon can improve your melee attacks.