D&D (2024) Greyhawk Confirmed. Tell Me Why.

[Staffan]

I think there should be room for both. The DMG isn't just a beginner's guide to running a game, it should also open doors to further development.

Thinking some more on this... I'm pretty sure I don't want the DMG to default to speedrunning world building. The DMG is not the "I bought a new game, let's play it tonight" book. That's the Starter set. The DMG should teach the DM to DM, and that includes world-building. I also believe it should cover varied approaches – not just top-down and bottom-up, but perhaps more importantly how to expand on someone else's work and make it your own. That's where Greyhawk comes in – it could serve as an example of "Here are some fine examples of where to start your campaign and how to build a starting town, and some things to consider with each location."

 

[Gradine]

Well, if addition to thw Greyhawk Setting, the DMG is supposed to have a "lot of Adventures." Wouldn't be shocked if keep on the Borderlands was in the DMG.

I'd personally hope that they'd spend that room on adventures that are actually good
<ducks>

 

[Hussar]

It’s not about speed running though. It’s about practicality. There’s only so much page count. A chunk of that is taken up by the examples. So there’s only so much space for advice.

If it comes down to picking one or the other, I’d prefer they go with bottom up because it’s easier for dms.

If there’s space for more? Fantastic. Great. I’m not saying one way is better than another. I’m saying that for a new dm and for people you want to become DMs, telling them they have to do 20-40 hours of homework before they even start preparing that first adventure is a non-starter.

 

[Cadence]

It’s not about speed running though. It’s about practicality. There’s only so much page count. A chunk of that is taken up by the examples. So there’s only so much space for advice.

If it comes down to picking one or the other, I’d prefer they go with bottom up because it’s easier for dms.

If there’s space for more? Fantastic. Great. I’m not saying one way is better than another. I’m saying that for a new dm and for people you want to become DMs, telling them they have to do 20-40 hours of homework before they even start preparing that first adventure is a non-starter.

What were the arguments made before (don't remember where or by who) against having a Dungeon Masters Guide for the basics of running, like a dungeon and maybe connecting them and how to do exploration, and having a Campaign Masters Guide for the world building?

 

[Desdichado]

The choice of Greyhawk is nostalgia bait for older fans and IP implantation for new fans.

Strixhaven, Eberron, or Nentir Vale are strictly better choices for an introductory setting and teaching material for a setting.

Probably. And yet, those more recent books, especially the ones that have presentation and content that's overtly marketed for "the kids" the last few years, like Ravnica, Strixhaven, Radiant Citadel, etc. haven't sold as well (according to data I saw on Professor Dungeonmaster's YouTube channel anyway).

Is almost as if someone at WotC has enough sense to suggest that they not go full Kathleen Kennedy or Kevin Feige and alienate their legacy fans to chase an elusive sexy young fanbase that maybe generates buzz on X or TikTok, but who doesn't seem to spend all that much money.

Instead we're getting... a swan song adventure about Vecna that's about as classic as you can get, and Greyhawk is back as the default setting. Sure looks to me like WotC is deliberately marketing to older fans as well and signaling that this game isn't just Furries & Feelings for the kids. Forget about the last couple of years of books, guys, seriously.

D&D seems to go through this cycle periodically. They drift too far from the core audience, start hemorrhaging fans, and then return to classic tropes mingled with a bit of new stuff to reel them back in. Most recently with the launch of 5e a number of years ago, but it seems about time for the cycle to repeat. Especially after the last couple of years worth of relatively (relatively, mind. I'm not suggesting that these were all flops) poorly received products and PR gaffes.

 

[Parmandur]

I'd personally hope that they'd spend that room on adventures that are actually good
<ducks>

Well, I'm not a partisan fir B2 per se, but...what do you really expect from the Adventures in the DMG?

 

[Gradine]

Well, I'm not a partisan fir B2 per se, but...what do you really expect from the Adventures in the DMG?

Not antiquated, tiresome, and nonsensical dungeon crawling?

 

[Yaarel]

Greyhawk is back as the default setting.

The 2024 default setting remains Forgotten Realms. Greyhawk is a variant setting in the DMs Guide. It is an example of how to homebrew other variant settings.

The siuation is similar to 2014 when putting the Eladrin in the DMs Guide as a variant species, as an example of how to homebrew other variant species.

 

[Scott Christian]

Gods? Don't need 'em. You're a cleric? You tell me who your god is. You're a Warlock? You tell me who your patron is. Get the players to get off their asses and do the work for a change. Make sure that world building is a group effort and the work can be shared around. That's what I hope they will teach the next batch of DM's and players. Not this horrid idea that there is a sharp divide between DM and player and ne'er the twain shall meet.

There is a divide though. The two are different. They have different roles to play in the game. They may be trying to reach similar goals, but they have different paths to get there. A goalkeeper and a striker may both be trying to win, but they have incredibly different paths to accomplish that win.
Can you agree to that?

There is also a side conversation that needs to be had about consistency. World consistency helps create the tone and mood in a game. That is why the established settings often work for everyone, because it creates a consistent tone and mood. If you ask a player to make up their god, and the cleric states: "Hunla, Goddess of stars and moons; bringer of nature magic and good harvests." And then the paladin answers the same question with: "BooBerry, God of ghosts and anything My Little Pony." You might have a consistency problem for certain players at the table.

 

[Parmandur]

Not antiquated, tiresome, and nonsensical dungeon crawling?

I mean realistically, what pool of material do you actually expect they will be drawing from...?