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D&D (2024) Greyhawk Confirmed. Tell Me Why.

Chaosmancer

Legend
There is no druid. Or you can add them when the players ask. This sort of thing shouldn't be planned ahead, or you will end wasting time preparing a vast number of things that the players will never see.

But... planning ahead things that the players will never see kind of IS world-building.

Yes, you can go too far with it, but I would also say you can go to far in "is it in the adventure? No. Then it doesn't matter." as well. Because sometimes players are going to think of something you never thought of. And if you are the type of DM who is great at off-the-cuff responses, then it is fine. But if you aren't, the more "useless" stuff you have lying around that players never see, the easier it is for you to see those gaps when the players ask the question. It gives you a structure to latch on to.

Again, yes, there are details that can bog down actually getting session 1 off the ground, but I don't think the right approach is to tell new DMs "Don't think about this, it isn't worth your time. Efficiency. Go Go Go." because that just isn't how someone who WANTS to build their own world is going to think. For building an adventure? Great. But this is the chapter on building a setting, and that is a slightly different beast.
 

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Chaosmancer

Legend
I look at the Moldvay Expert book as the gold standard here. The entire description of the Known World is limited to what, 10 pages? That was it. That was the whole Known World. Gods? Don't need 'em. You're a cleric? You tell me who your god is. You're a Warlock? You tell me who your patron is. Get the players to get off their asses and do the work for a change. Make sure that world building is a group effort and the work can be shared around. That's what I hope they will teach the next batch of DM's and players. Not this horrid idea that there is a sharp divide between DM and player and ne'er the twain shall meet.

I am all for people working together, but a lot of, and I do mean A LOT, of new players need some level of guidance. Patrons can be a little easier, because generally the Pact comes with a story, but there has been more than one time when I've asked a cleric player who their character worshipped and gotten a blank stare. And just demanding they come up with someone is a good way to Artemis or something else they pulled randomly from their hazy high school memories. And that's for the ones who try, not the ones who just panic and decide to play something else because they can't think of an idea.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
It gives hope for a new printing of:

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Return to the Keep on the Borderlands - Wikipedia ?


[I had completely forgotten that the return was put in Greyhawk - found checking Category:Greyhawk modules - Wikipedia ]
 


Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Well, if addition to thw Greyhawk Setting, the DMG is supposed to have a "lot of Adventures." Wouldn't be shocked if keep on the Borderlands was in the DMG.

For the original one I can pull the Goodman one off the shelf... I really want the revisited! It feels like that's a lot of pages and maps to do right inside the DMG. (Unless you count every cave as a different adventure to get up to the "lots" ;-) ).
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
I've found it to be the opposite, actually. It only gets messy if you have people who refuse to compromise.

Different experiences. I recently was trying to world-build with a group from my old job. It was like pulling teeth to get anyone to decide anything. Which made it hard for me unless I wanted to start stomping all over just making decisions for the group. And we were working in a "each person gets their own area of the continent" not a "each person covers everything at the same time, because we are all editing it for our job."

Perhaps, but. When you have a ginormous existing setting, it doesn't feel like there's a beginning--especially when you compare to a setting like Eberron where the politics and religions cause the entire world to be connected in some way. (This would be less so in a setting like Greyhawk, which seems to have been made more piecemeal--although I admit I could be wrong about that; I don't know that much about Greyhawk's history.) If, as people have suggested, the goal is to start small--here is your Village of Hommlet, here's the surrounding lands, here's the point where the first adventure will take place, that's all you need--then using a tiny point on a preexisting map is going to feel very inadequate.

So let's say you take Greyhawk. Where exactly do you start? A specific location? The gods? The setting's theme and flavor?

Or the species? There's been some talk on this thread about how to get the newer species into Greyhawk, with some people saying it's really easy and others saying that it goes against the setting's flavor. You definitely don't have to worry about that if you're making a new setting, because you can add them all in at the start.

It is the exact same question for a new setting though. Where do you start? A new location? The gods? The Theme and Flavor? The Species? This is the exact same formula, just without answers after the equal sign.

Actually, a good analogy here might be character creation. Where do you start? I've had people start with their background, others with their subclass, still others with a weapon or with rolling their stats. The answer is you start where you start. It is perfectly acceptable for the chapter to start with whatever they decide to start with, then expand or focus in as they desire.

Maybe they do Hommlet, then Greyhawk the city, then a few surrounding nations and the various factions, and they have covered a fairly decent sized portion of the map, while giving the new DM the tools to build on every level of that map.

I'm not saying that a chapter focusing on Greyhawk can't do that. I just think it would end up being better if they built a new world.

Plus, a lot of people have been clamoring for a new setting and this would be a good introduction to one. If it turns out that people like the setting that was produced in the book, then they put out a setting book for it. If people ended up being meh about it, then they don't.

I mean, I can't tell you that your opinion is wrong. At a certain level, I see the two approaches (new setting or existing setting) as fundamentally identical for the purposes of teaching. Because you need to build the new setting before showing how to build it, and therefore from the author's perspective, both settings "exist" while you write the chapter.

But Greyhawk, as you said, CAN do it, and it has advantages that WotC wants to leverage for this 50th anniversary. As long as they write the teaching chapter well, I won't begrudge them that.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
Maybe, if you are building it for yourself, rather than your players.

But it consumes TIME, which it the main commodity many potential DMs simply do not have to spare.
That's why you get the players to work together with you. Open up a googledoc, write down your base assumptions and some questions, and give everyone the link.

If you're too busy to even jot down a few sentences, then you grab an established setting instead. There's many of them, and that's not even including fanbrew settings that you can get via DriveThru or DM's Guild.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Maybe, if you are building it for yourself, rather than your players.

But it consumes TIME, which it the main commodity many potential DMs simply do not have to spare.

Sure, I don't disagree with you that it takes time.

But a DM who opens the chapter "how to build a world" with the goal of learning how to build their world, is going to be really turned off by "Don't bother with the details of world-building, that wastes your time. Only focus on the adventure"

Like, if I wanted to build a pantheon, and I turn to the chapter, and its advice is "don't build a pantheon, that's stupid and a waste of your time. Just use the pre-build pantheons" well... the chapter is useless to me now. Because that isn't (I hope) going to get rid of the DESIRE to build the pantheon, it is just going to tell me that this chapter isn't about helping me do what I want to do. And so when I go to build a city later... why would I go to the chapter that tells me that is a waste of my time and I shouldn't bother?

Now, if the section starts with "Building a pantheon is a lot of hard work, and there is no shame in taking the pre-built pantheon and altering it a little to change the flavor" then that is GREAT advice. It does help a lot, but then if I don't want that... I hope the book goes into a little more detail on what to do if that isn't what you want.

Yes, a thousand times yes, telling people to put too much detail in is equally bad. Yes, the chapter should be practical. But a chapter on world-building should have advice on world-building. The chapter on adventure building (which is a confirmed, different chapter) can focus on adventure building.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
That's why you get the players to work together with you. Open up a googledoc, write down your base assumptions and some questions, and give everyone the link.

If you're too busy to even jot down a few sentences, then you grab an established setting instead. There's many of them, and that's not even including fanbrew settings that you can get via DriveThru or DM's Guild.
Really the purpose of world building in D&D is establishment of base assumptions that both the DMs and players know and using that information to run and roleplay in adventures.

Which how particular many DMs are which the themes and tones of their game, the idea of purposely leaving vase assumptions that will very likely be encounter empty and either determined on the fly or god forbid narrated by players seems bass ackwards.
 

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