D&D (2024) Greyhawk Confirmed. Tell Me Why.

[TiQuinn]

Cultures of any given setting can easily restrict those kind of PC options. The more specific and bespoke the setting, the more likely such restrictions are to be in place (and to make sense to be there). That is, if the decision isn't made to just sell everything, all the time, to everyone, and never mind the integrity of the fiction.

Guess which side WotC almost always falls on?

You’re talking about canon, and canon for a campaign setting that is then ultimately turned over to a dungeon master to do with as they see fit is self-defeating.

 

[TiQuinn]

Sure.

So is WOTC going to put a non-evil Orc nation or city-state in the Greyhawk in the DMG?

I don’t know. I would.

 

[Micah Sweet]

D&D settings reflect D&D as it is now, not as it was then. If the setting cannot adapt to the modern version of the game, it can join Dark Sun and Birthright in the dust bin of history.

How much adaption is necessary, and how much is added out of fear that anything not completely married to the current zeitgeist won't sell?

 

[Swanosaurus]

How does Primal Barbarians, Warlocks, and Sorcerers fit into Greyhawk?
Where are the social links of Aaasimar, Goliaths, and Good Orcs in Greyhawk?
Are Goliaths just Half Giants? I thought we were dropping half folk?
How do Dwarves and Halflings get to cast Arcane magic now?

OR Is this a generic D&D world with no real legacy history or lore and are painting "Greyhawk" on it as nostalgia and legacy bait?

Okay, I'm speaking as someone who knows next to nothing about Greyhawk - but from what I've read here, it sounds like it's always been a broad strokes setting.
So if it hat magic wielders, why would Warlocks and Sorcerers be a problem beyond "they were always there, we just haven't seen them yet"?
The same goes for Goliaths or Good Orcs or Aasimar.

Back then, we played practically exclusively in The Dark Eye's world Aventuria for about two decades ... it started very broad strokes. It had humans and elves and dwarves. Orcs and goblins were monsters. At some point, there was an adventure with lizard people, who where monsters. At some point, there was an adventure with humanoid undersea-creatures, who were monsters. Dwarves were anti-magical. "Demon" was the name of one monster in one adventure which looked like a Nazgul with a whip.

These days, Aventuria has at least four types of dwarves, one of them are is more or less a stand-in for halflings; orcs, goblins, lizard folk and undersea people are playable. Dwarves can wield magic, they even have their own type of druidic magic career (but they can be most other kinds of magic-wielders as well). Demons are a whole class of creatures with a complex mythology/theology behind them, and the "Nazgul" are among the most minor types. Rules have changed radically, and the lore has changed along; often changes were justified with wrong in-world assumptions, so that the "objective" information of a previous edition became the misconception of the next one. Dwarves never were anti-magical, most people just didn't know about the dwarf-druids; orcs weren't naturally evil, it's just that they used to raid the humans of the sorrounding areas and therefore were painted in that light; a lot of people knew nothing about demons, so the one type they may have encountered stood for the whole class. I could go on and on ...

Still, Aventuria is considered one of the most consistent fantasy worlds ever in existence, with an ongoing history since 1986; there was never a "reset", it has evolved continuously and mostly organically. Room was made for new elements, or for new interpretations of old elements.

I don't see why something similar shouldn't work for Greyhawk.

 

[Micah Sweet]

You’re talking about canon, and canon for a campaign setting that is then ultimately turned over to a dungeon master to do with as they see fit is self-defeating.

Settings have canon. If you don't want to have a history, then make new stuff.

 

[TiQuinn]

Settings have canon. If you don't want to have a history, then make new stuff.

Or just throw out what you don’t want and use what you like in the setting and still call it Faerun or the Flanaess. No one is going to give you a ticket.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Okay, I'm speaking as someone who knows next to nothing about Greyhawk - but from what I've read here, it sounds like it's always been a broad strokes setting.
So if it hat magic wielders, why would Warlocks and Sorcerers be a problem beyond "they were always there, we just haven't seen them yet"?
The same goes for Goliaths or Good Orcs or Aasimar.

Back then, we played practically exclusively in The Dark Eyes world Aventuria for about two decades ... it started very broad strokes. It had humans and elves and dwarves. Orcs and goblins were monster. At some point, there was an adventure with lizard people, who where monsters. At some point, there was an adventure with humanoid undersea-creatures, who were monsters. Dwarves were anti-magical. "Demon" was the name of one monster in one adventure which looked like a Nazgul with a whip.

These days, Aventuria has at least four types of dwarves, ohne of them are is more or less a stand-in for halflings; orcs, goblins, lizard folk and undersea people are playable. Dwarves can wield magic, they even have their own type of druidic magic career (but they can be most other kinds of magic-wielders as well). Demons are a whole class of creatures with a complex mythology/theology behind them, and the "Nazgul" are among the most minor typies. Rules have changed radically, and the lore has changed along; often changs were justified with wrong in-world assumptions, so that the "objective" information of a previous edition became the misconception of the next one. Dwarves never were anti-magical, most people just didn't know about the dwarf-druids; orcs weren't naturally evil, it's just that they used to raid the humans of the sorrounding areas and therefore were painted in that light; a lot of people knew nothing about demons, so the one type they may have encountered stood for the whole class. I could go on and on ...

Still, Aventuria is considered one of the most consistent fantasy worlds ever in existence, with an ongoing history since 1986; there was never a "reset", it has evolved continuously and mostly organically. Room was made for new elements, or for new interpretations of old elements.

I don't see why something similar shouldn't work for Greyhawk.

That's actually a great way to adapt a long-running setting. TSR did this regularly when updated from 1e to 2e, for example, so do many long-running franchises, and it works because it is additive. The retcons don't change history, they re-interpret it, and with care and decent writing it can be done well.

The problem is, I have zero faith in WotC's ability or interest in exercising that care. Van Richten's proved that to me, and Spelljammer and (to a lesser extent) Dragonlance supported my feelings on the issue. Most of the time, they simply do not want to put in the effort to update a setting faithfully (Planescape was a surprise in that way, but a unique one).

 

[Micah Sweet]

Or just throw out what you don’t want and use what you like in the setting and still call it Faerun or the Flanaess. No one is going to give you a ticket.

Unless it's WotC doing that. I'll ticket them all darn day.

 

[Remathilis]

Cultures of any given setting can easily restrict those kind of PC options. The more specific and bespoke the setting, the more likely such restrictions are to be in place (and to make sense to be there). That is, if the decision isn't made to just sell everything, all the time, to everyone, and never mind the integrity of the fiction.

Guess which side WotC almost always falls on?

But they don't.

Legit question: do you think Forgotten Realms should not allow dwarven wizards? It was first published in 1e and for the first part of its existence did not allow them, not until 2000 (same as Greyhawk). Does dwarven wizards ruin Faerun? Should WotC to this day ban that combination in Faerun in order to preserve this continuity?

And if no, then why is Greyhawk different?

 

[TiQuinn]

Unless it's WotC doing that. I'll ticket them all darn day.

Okay but they’ve done it multiple times already. The Spellplague, The Time of Troubles. All walked back almost wholesale in later editions keeping only the pieces they ultimately wanted to keep.