D&D General Gish Thoughts

[Micah Sweet]

Pretty much every attempt I've seen to make Gish or Gishlike character class has used the Fighter as the base and then added on spellcasting. Whether that's an Eldritch Knight in 5e or a 4e Swordmage or the massive variety of 3e Prestige Classes that require 3 levels of fighter and 3 of wizard before you get to play what you -wanted- to play at level 1.

And it occurred to me that we largely do it that way for two reasons:

1) Githyanki Silver Swords
2) Paladins

... but what if that's the wrong way to do it?

4e situated the Monk as a Psionic Striker and put out a Battlemind in plate armor with a shield and sword. And over in the Leader category it had the Ardent with platemail and a greatsword.

But what if the right way to do a Gish in 5e is to use the Monk chassis instead of the Fighter and then do a Wizard/Monk Psychic Warrior in the same vein as a Cleric/Fighter Paladin?

Give them martial weapon proficiency and light armor but allow them to us Intelligence in place of Dex. And allow them to "Spellstrike" with cantrips at level 1+, using the weapon's damage dice and the cantrip's damage type. So a 2d6+Str fire damage greatsword swing because you used Firebolt to spellstrike, secondary effects apply normally. So a Ray of Frost spellstrike slows your enemy down or you can give them a 1d4 penalty on their next save with a Mind Sliver spellstrike. And then, as a bonus action, make a follow up attack whenever you use a spellstrike to deal an additional 1d4 damage of the same type, like a monk does with their bonus actions but you don't have Ki to get a second attack.

But also give them the Dash/Dodge/Disengage bonus actions of the Monk. Because the Wizard/Monk Gish is still a d8 light-fighter rather than a d10 "Stand in Melee wearing Plate" kind of fighter. And at 5th level when they get Extra Attack let them spellstrike with two different cantrips if they like. And, of course, they get spells they can cast as an action -instead- of fighting in melee with spellstrikes and the like... But like paladins: half casters. Of course eventually they get to cast a spell and make it a melee attack in a true "Spellsmite" or something, which replaces the use case of stunning strike for Polymorph or hitting an enemy to apply Enemies Abound rather than them getting a save.

Sorcerer/Rogue for a different type of Gish that still focuses in on high mobility, but instead of bonus action dash or disengage they bonus action teleport up to 20ft or something similar. And rather than sneak attacking and spell points they get a dice pool they can try to add to their spellstrike's damage (if the target is threatened and/or they've got advantage or whatever) -or- use to alter the function of their spells.

How about a Warlock/Barbarian Gish that is really just some kind of Arcane Monstrosity class where your patron gives you Physical Power through mystical transformation rather than spellcraft? You still get Invocations, though, and Green Flame Blade or Pact of the Blade or whatever to maintain the occult connection. Instead of Rage reducing the damage you take you still get the d12 hit dice and big armor that may or may not be magically bound to you or something.

I dunno... but it could really increase the flavors of gishiness beyond "Spellblade" if different methods of being a gish created different playstyles while playing with the same basic concept. Magic + Weapon.

What about the Bladesinger? That seems to come from the other direction.

 

[Minigiant]

It's definitely a unique fusion... but what's it a fusion of?

Fighter + Wizard. Which is the core thesis is that we tend to make "Fighter does Magic".

It wasn;t "wizard spells".
The Swordmage wasn't a fusion.

The concept of a gish comes in 4... err..5 flavors

1. A Full Warrior who casts Mage spells
2. A Full Mage who can fight one or 2 styles like a Warrior
3. A Half Mage/Half Warrior who is half good at both and combines the two
4. A Full Warrior who casts "Weapon Magic"
5. A Full Mage who masters "Mage Weapons"

 

[Corinnguard]

The concept of a gish comes in 4 flavors

1. A Full Warrior who casts Mage spells
2. A Full Mage who can fight one or 2 styles like a Warrior
3. A Half Mage/Half Warrior who is half good at both and combines the two
4. A Full Warrior who casts "Weapon Magic"

After looking at her first post, I think Steampunkette wants a full warrior who casts 'weapon magic'. The other three have appeared before in D&D and Pathfinder 1st edition.

 

[Wofano Wotanto]

Never really thought of him as a gish, but I had a human barbarian/sorcerer back in 3e that did fine throughout the single-digit levels. Focused on defensive arcane spells for improved AC, add some mobility and a bit of spike damage with other spells and enjoy the rage and barbarian HP while flailing around in melee. Not optimized but good enough.

 

[Steampunkette]

The PF1 Magus is a pretty good Gish too.

Are you planning on designing a Gish class for Level Up, @Steampunkette?

Probably several.

The Warcaster for Martial Artistry is already -kind- of Gishy but heavy on the Wizard side of Gishiness. They basically use Cantrip Scaling to do Extra Attack rather than actually -getting- Extra Attack. It's also "Kind Of" a Ranger-Wizard in concept?

Because they're lightly armored and focused in on Cantrip casting they're -fairly- archerish (and narratively described as them). But you -can- do melee with them and their d8 hit dice light armor, and simple weapons, they just tend to be fairly squishy.

But then you've got the Swordsage subclass which is very much a medium armor spellstriker concept at level 3 to be more of a meleeist.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

When I’m playing a FRPG, I like mixing martial skill of some kind with magical ability of some kind. Warriors of some stripe predominate, but there’s also clergy, rogues and martial artists of different types in the mix as well. Over the decades and in various systems, my characters have ranged from spellcasters who are moderately skilled with a single notable weapon to warriors whose magic is just barely noteworthy.

(The most recent 3.5Ed PC I created is a simple warrior whose magical abilities all stem from feats and templates.)

Back in the 3.X era, I assembled these databases to help create all kinds of variations:

The 3.X Martial Arcanist Database

I love to play melee-minded arcane spellcasters. This thread is a database for 3.X classes, feats, etc. that (hopefully) will help people design whatever flavor of 2-fisted arcanists they care to. Obviously, this will take a bit of time, and I'm not perfect- if you see something I missed or...

www.enworld.org

The 3.X Monk Database (now with added detail)

I'm just starting this thread to assemble a bunch of info on sources handy for building Monk characters that some may not be aware of. USEFUL SOURCEBOOKS: OA Multiclassing options, Weapons, Feats, PrCls EB Feats Secrets of Sarlona Feats Races of Eberron PrCl XPH Feats, PrCls...

www.enworld.org

So my Gish thoughts: the more options you have for blending martial puissance and mystic might you have, the better. I’d love to play in a system or campaign that could go from 0%/100% to 100%/0% and all points in between.

 

[Vaalingrade]

It's definitely a unique fusion... but what's it a fusion of?

I think that's actually the point and why it as good at being a gish.

When I say 'Gish', I mean a swordsman with a fantastical and magical sword style, not a wizard with a sword.

Spell in D&D are a very specific thing that enforce a very specific fantasy for the spellcaster. By removing the idea of the gish using spells and instead granting them cool magisword strikes, we achieve a better philosophy and design for the gish.

 

[Shardstone]

Pretty much every attempt I've seen to make Gish or Gishlike character class has used the Fighter as the base and then added on spellcasting. Whether that's an Eldritch Knight in 5e or a 4e Swordmage or the massive variety of 3e Prestige Classes that require 3 levels of fighter and 3 of wizard before you get to play what you -wanted- to play at level 1.

And it occurred to me that we largely do it that way for two reasons:

1) Githyanki Silver Swords
2) Paladins

... but what if that's the wrong way to do it?

4e situated the Monk as a Psionic Striker and put out a Battlemind in plate armor with a shield and sword. And over in the Leader category it had the Ardent with platemail and a greatsword.

But what if the right way to do a Gish in 5e is to use the Monk chassis instead of the Fighter and then do a Wizard/Monk Psychic Warrior in the same vein as a Cleric/Fighter Paladin?

Give them martial weapon proficiency and light armor but allow them to us Intelligence in place of Dex. And allow them to "Spellstrike" with cantrips at level 1+, using the weapon's damage dice and the cantrip's damage type. So a 2d6+Str fire damage greatsword swing because you used Firebolt to spellstrike, secondary effects apply normally. So a Ray of Frost spellstrike slows your enemy down or you can give them a 1d4 penalty on their next save with a Mind Sliver spellstrike. And then, as a bonus action, make a follow up attack whenever you use a spellstrike to deal an additional 1d4 damage of the same type, like a monk does with their bonus actions but you don't have Ki to get a second attack.

But also give them the Dash/Dodge/Disengage bonus actions of the Monk. Because the Wizard/Monk Gish is still a d8 light-fighter rather than a d10 "Stand in Melee wearing Plate" kind of fighter. And at 5th level when they get Extra Attack let them spellstrike with two different cantrips if they like. And, of course, they get spells they can cast as an action -instead- of fighting in melee with spellstrikes and the like... But like paladins: half casters. Of course eventually they get to cast a spell and make it a melee attack in a true "Spellsmite" or something, which replaces the use case of stunning strike for Polymorph or hitting an enemy to apply Enemies Abound rather than them getting a save.

Sorcerer/Rogue for a different type of Gish that still focuses in on high mobility, but instead of bonus action dash or disengage they bonus action teleport up to 20ft or something similar. And rather than sneak attacking and spell points they get a dice pool they can try to add to their spellstrike's damage (if the target is threatened and/or they've got advantage or whatever) -or- use to alter the function of their spells.

How about a Warlock/Barbarian Gish that is really just some kind of Arcane Monstrosity class where your patron gives you Physical Power through mystical transformation rather than spellcraft? You still get Invocations, though, and Green Flame Blade or Pact of the Blade or whatever to maintain the occult connection. Instead of Rage reducing the damage you take you still get the d12 hit dice and big armor that may or may not be magically bound to you or something.

I dunno... but it could really increase the flavors of gishiness beyond "Spellblade" if different methods of being a gish created different playstyles while playing with the same basic concept. Magic + Weapon.

My class, th Pendragon, starts off as a caster first, and has special weapon cantrips built into the class and a lot of custom spells that involve weapon attacks. I decided that this was a very elegant way of achieving the concept. Would you like to see it?

 

[MichaelSomething]

Once again, I urge you to multiclass.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Basic monk concept: No armor but still a fairly high AC, comparatively light damage with extra swings to equalize DPR, high mobility and escape options, etc.

I'm not saying "Take the monk as it is written and give it paladin spellcasting" I'm saying use the design intentions behind the monk to make a gish class based on the way they act and move in combat.

Yes. Fighter/Wizard. That's what pretty much everyone does is what I'm saying.

It's definitely a unique fusion... but what's it a fusion of?

Fighter + Wizard. Which is the core thesis is that we tend to make "Fighter does Magic".

all proper half-casters who do well can be described in three parts, the spellcaster part, the fighting bit(normally the fighter itself) and the part that makes it something more than either of those basic components.

Once again, I urge you to multiclass.

should the paladin just be a fighter cleric multi-class?

I think that's actually the point and why it as good at being a gish.

When I say 'Gish', I mean a swordsman with a fantastical and magical sword style, not a wizard with a sword.

Spell in D&D are a very specific thing that enforce a very specific fantasy for the spellcaster. By removing the idea of the gish using spells and instead granting them cool magisword strikes, we achieve a better philosophy and design for the gish.

well, what do magic sword strikes do beyond smite foes it needs to be more than that