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Forked Thread: The Lethality of Keep on the Shadowfell (Paging Mr. Mearls or Cordell)

Ashrem Bayle

Explorer
Forked from: The Lethality of 4E

Ashrem Bayle said:
Ok, so we had a party of:

Elf Ranger
1/2 Elf Cleric of Sehanine
Eladrin Wizard
Dragonborn Paladin
Tiefling Warlock

This weekend they fought Irontooth and his buddies and they suffered a TPK. Well, they would have but the Warlock managed to retreat with his remaining 6 hit points.

I'm looking at this encounter and I think it was poorly designed. There have been WAY to many accounts of TPKs.

The DMG rates that as an appropriate challenge for a 6th level party! It'd would be a tough challenge for a 4th-5th level group.

Barring some REALLY lucky roles, a group of 1st level PCs hardly have a chance.

Next weekend a group of 2nd level characters are going back and I'm adjusting the encounter to about 4th level like it should be.

Has anyone heard anything from Bruce Cordell or Mike Mearls regarding why they put this encounter in the module as it was?

Was it a mistake, or was it there to teach players that life in the dungeon isn't always fair and it's ok to run away?
 
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icarusfallz

First Post
Actually, I sort of have an opinion on this. KotS was supposed to be an introductory adventure, right? So it introduces us to ALL aspects of D&D 4E, including the choice to RUN AWAY or DIE!!! You can't get a more 1st Ed D&D than that!;)
 

Ashrem Bayle

Explorer
Actually, I sort of have an opinion on this. KotS was supposed to be an introductory adventure, right? So it introduces us to ALL aspects of D&D 4E, including the choice to RUN AWAY or DIE!!! You can't get a more 1st Ed D&D than that!;)

That may well be the case. I'm wondering if DMs with newbie players fared any better.

Those who played 3e/3.5e probably got used to encounters weighed in their favor.
 

helium3

First Post
Well, if you split it into waves the first wave is between a level 1 and level 2 encounter (550 XP) and the second wave is between a level 2 and level 3 encounter (700 XP).

I suspect there may be an unwritten assumption that the two waves occur far enough apart that the party can pop off any available healing but that they don't get a full 5 minute rest.

Maybe the problems occur when the DM has the 2nd wave occur immediately after the first ends or when the two are combined.
 

Ashrem Bayle

Explorer
Well, if you split it into waves the first wave is between a level 1 and level 2 encounter (550 XP) and the second wave is between a level 2 and level 3 encounter (700 XP).

I suspect there may be an unwritten assumption that the two waves occur far enough apart that the party can pop off any available healing but that they don't get a full 5 minute rest.

Maybe the problems occur when the DM has the 2nd wave occur immediately after the first ends or when the two are combined.

In our case, the party all decided to go in the same entrance. They were fighting through the 1st wave when the 2nd decided (after a few rounds) to move around (outside) and come back in behind them, trapping them between the 1st wave and the 2nd.

It was a harsh tactic to use on my part, but it was realistic.
 

Boarstorm

First Post
In our case, the party all decided to go in the same entrance. They were fighting through the 1st wave when the 2nd decided (after a few rounds) to move around (outside) and come back in behind them, trapping them between the 1st wave and the 2nd.

It was a harsh tactic to use on my part, but it was realistic.

I used the same tactic on my players.

But they survived. It was a close thing, for some of the players (and their characters, heh), but they pulled it out without any deaths.

I ran another group through, however, and they got demolished. In that case, my observations were these:
1) Rockstars get killed. Run into the spotlight and grind your axe and you will be put down by mobs of adoring fans.
2) Teamwork is imperative. More a corollary to 1) than a separate observation, the group who stuck together, focused fire on single targets and (once surrounded) focused on cutting through one group of kobolds in order to put their back to the wall survived. The group who focused on abilities that just did the most [W]s of damage instead of granting various benefits for everyone got mauled.
3) Don't be too proud to take a second wind. Seriously, it's amazing how many players I've seen who are unwilling to stop attacking for a round in order to heal themselves.
4) Keep him moving. The group that cotton'd to the fact that Irontooth only got to use his double attack if he didn't move managed to avoid a lot of the trouble that the other group choked on.
5) Action Points are king. The TPK group used their APs for Alpha Strikes, front-loading their damage against the first wave -- and while they inflicted a lot of damage, they didn't have the adaptability of the other group, who conserved their AP and used them at strategically appropriate times (Wizard who thunderwaved the kobolds off the cleric followed by a burning hands to target the now-perfectly arranged little suckers for oodles of damage; fighter who attacked and followed up with a second wind so he'd survive the inevitable counterattack).
6) Avenging Fire (Cleric Daily) is Nasty. You have to sacrifice your attacks in order to make a saving throw, and even then there's a chance you'll fail your save. This power was the real Irontooth killer for that group.

Edit: Perhaps unrelated, but somewhat interesting nonetheless --
The group who worked together and overcame the challenge (they actually did both the outside encounter and inside encounter(s) at the same time, in fact) were players who were coming over from 1E and 2E.

The group who focused on individual power and personal spotlight (and insisted on a full rest after every encounter, and who got massacred) were all converts from a 3.5 game.

Take from that what you will. (Youth vs. Maturity? System tropes? I dunno.)
 
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Well, if you split it into waves the first wave is between a level 1 and level 2 encounter (550 XP) and the second wave is between a level 2 and level 3 encounter (700 XP).

I suspect there may be an unwritten assumption that the two waves occur far enough apart that the party can pop off any available healing but that they don't get a full 5 minute rest.

Maybe the problems occur when the DM has the 2nd wave occur immediately after the first ends or when the two are combined.

My PCs managed to dispatch the encounter outside the lair with little incident, but the wizard chased the Slinger inside and triggered both the first and second wave simultaneously. One PC died, the other four were down around 10 hp or less, but they burned all their Daily and Encounter powers, Second Winds, and generally went to the mat on everything.

It's tough, especially if you've got headstrong players like mine, but it's doable.
 

Cadfan

First Post
My PCs approached it pretty tactically. They entered through a side entrance, and did not trigger the second wave early. By the time the second wave arrived, the first wave was all but destroyed.

We do have a very good class distribution though. Which helps a lot. And the PCs dumped a lot of daily powers on Irontooth, blinding him once, and weakening him twice.

Human Fighter (maul)
Human Rogue (rapier, shuriken)
Tiefling Wizard (fire specialist)
Elf Ranger (melee)
Elf Cleric (spells)
 

Ashrem Bayle

Explorer
My PCs managed to dispatch the encounter outside the lair with little incident, but the wizard chased the Slinger inside and triggered both the first and second wave simultaneously. One PC died, the other four were down around 10 hp or less, but they burned all their Daily and Encounter powers, Second Winds, and generally went to the mat on everything.

It's tough, especially if you've got headstrong players like mine, but it's doable.

I just can't see how this is possible short of some truly amazing rolls.
You know they can only take one Second Wind per encounter right?
 

Festivus

First Post
In our case, the party all decided to go in the same entrance. They were fighting through the 1st wave when the 2nd decided (after a few rounds) to move around (outside) and come back in behind them, trapping them between the 1st wave and the 2nd.

It was a harsh tactic to use on my part, but it was realistic.

That was exactly how I ran it. My group mostly died, but the warlock got away. Two of the players rolled 20's on their death saving throws while the others were chasing her away, they dragged the other two dead bodies out.

I consider the first incursion into the lair a failure but they didn't TPK and they learned a hard lesson about perhaps considering running away... particularly when you see reinforcements coming.
 

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