Familiars as characters/cohorts

[Luthien Greyspear]

Does anyone know if there are any rules/restrictions on familiars taking class levels? They have the intelligence (maybe not for wizard, but still...).

More importantly (for my campaign), are there any rules forbidding a wizard or sorceror from taking his own familiar as a cohort? Perhaps by counting the familiar as a character of half the PC's class level (rounded up), and allowing it to gain levels as the wiz/sorc gains levels, up to a practical limit of the PC's Leadership score?

For instance, Alison, a 6th-level Wizard with a 14 Charisma has a familiar, Chikka the flying squirrel. She has just taken the Leadership feat (Leadership score of 8), and Chikka becomes her (3rd-level equivalent) cohort, below the limit of a 4th-level cohort. Next level (7th), the maximum cohort level goes up by one, and Chikka's equivalent level automatically goes up by one (to 4th-level). The level after that, while the max cohort level goes up by one, Chikka's equivalent level does not (as half of 7, rounded up, is the same as half of 8). Could Chikka gain a level of rogue, or maybe ranger, to continue to be effective as a cohort? Or is this simply not possible?

 

[Connorsrpg]

Well Luthien, sorry I am not here with answers. I was about to post a new thread myself on the same matter so I will chime in here.

I have a player who wants to teach his monkey familiar to use hand crossbow and he also asked about giving his familiar levels. I too wish to know what the consensus is here. I realise I need to read over the familiar rules carefully (but I haven't got them with me at the moment).

Initial thoughts were similar to Luthien's. Familiars have Intelligence (sometimes more than other members of the party) so why can't they do things such as use weapons etc. Problem comes in in that they don't get feats etc as advanced creatures would. How do other DMs handle this?

Just here for some thoughts on the topic

Connors

 

[Luthien Greyspear]

Ah! A Brother in Confusion!

Nice to know I'm not the only one scratching my head about this.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Does anyone know if there are any rules/restrictions on familiars taking class levels? They have the intelligence (maybe not for wizard, but still...).

Familiars don't gain levels because they don't gain experience. They are merely an extension of the wizard's powers, and gain power as the wizard does. There are no rules for familiars taking levels, because they were never meant to do so.

More importantly (for my campaign), are there any rules forbidding a wizard or sorceror from taking his own familiar as a cohort? Perhaps by counting the familiar as a character of half the PC's class level (rounded up), and allowing it to gain levels as the wiz/sorc gains levels, up to a practical limit of the PC's Leadership score?

I know of no such rules, but as a DM I would probably allow a PC to take his familiar as his own cohort. I am usually against combining a cohort with other companion creatures, because the consolidation of power in one creature is far more than, IMO, the designers intended or balance allows. But the standard familiar is so weak to begin with, that I don't see that as being a problem.

For instance, Alison, a 6th-level Wizard with a 14 Charisma has a familiar, Chikka the flying squirrel. She has just taken the Leadership feat (Leadership score of 8), and Chikka becomes her (3rd-level equivalent) cohort, below the limit of a 5th-level cohort.

The limit for a 6th-level character is, per 3.5 rules, a 4th-level cohort. The cohort must be two levels below the master. This was changed from 3.0, where a cohort could indeed be only one level below the master.

Could Chikka gain a level of rogue, or maybe ranger, to continue to be effective as a cohort? Or is this simply not possible?

Core, this isn't possible. Though I've already mentioned that as a DM, I'd allow it. I would, however, remind the wizard player that if he chooses to make his familiar a factor in combat, the party's foes will likely also choose to make the familiar a target in combat as a result.

 

[Luthien Greyspear]

The limit for a 6th-level character is, per 3.5 rules, a 4th-level cohort. The cohort must be two levels below the master. This was changed from 3.0, where a cohort could indeed be only one level below the master.

Oops, forgot to change that when I finished setting her stats. Thanks for catching it. Will edit pronto to avoid confusion.

I would, however, remind the wizard player that if he chooses to make his familiar a factor in combat, the party's foes will likely also choose to make the familiar a target in combat as a result.

Oh, both I and the player have discussed this. She's up for the challenge, and I like the idea of a familar vs. familiar fight at the same time as a wizard vs. wizard duel. Sort of an 'as above, so below' theme.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Oh, both I and the player have discussed this. She's up for the challenge, and I like the idea of a familar vs. familiar fight at the same time as a wizard vs. wizard duel. Sort of an 'as above, so below' theme.

You're being kind. Tactically, if I can kill the crossbow-wielding monkey with one sneak attack, as opposed to wounding but not killing any other party member, the monkey dies. Like the druid's animal companion, it's best to kill it early.

Letting the familiar face only other familiars, while possibly thematically interesting, is tactically foolish. Which is of course fine for tactically foolish foes, but not the smart ones.

Edit to add:

One possibly sticky aspect of this concept is the familar/cohort's hit points. A familiar gains hp based on the wizard, while a cohort has its own hit dice. As a DM, I'd require the familiar to give up his wizard-granted hit points and go strictly with hit die granted hit points. Letting the familiar have both half the wizard's hp, plus wizard level -2 hit die of its own starts to move the hybrid into the "too much power concentrated in one critter" problem I mentioned in my previous post.

 

[Luthien Greyspear]

You're being kind. Tactically, if I can kill the crossbow-wielding monkey with one sneak attack, as opposed to wounding but not killing any other party member, the monkey dies. Like the druid's animal companion, it's best to kill it early.

Letting the familiar face only other familiars, while possibly thematically interesting, is tactically foolish. Which is of course fine for tactically foolish foes, but not the smart ones.

I absolutely agree, and would eagerly have whatever rogues/scouts/sneak attackers in the enemy party go after the familiars. The problem is, I know my players. They are just as sneaky, prepare tons of warning spells in advance, and USE them. It has proven difficult (but not impossible) to catch them by surprise, and when I do, the first instinct of the sole familiar in the party (the squirrel) has been to hide, which she is very good at doing. This whole conundrum came up because the character is tired of her rodent hiding when the danger rears its ugly head (although the player agrees that it is TOTALLY in character).

In the situations I've thrown at the party so far, the only way I would've had a reason to target the familiar is as a result of metagaming, not role-playing. I've never metagamed my NPCs, and refuse to start doing so just to screw over a party of adventurers played by my friends.

Not that I won't screw them over, of course. I just won't metagame to do it.

 

[Connorsrpg]

Sound advice Pendragon. Especially if the familiar is going to be a part of combat - it is also going to be a major target.

Re the experience. If I am to allow progression the XP would come directly from the character's Xp. Ie: the wizard can sacrifice some of its XP to advance his familiar. Again, not sure if this would work, but it still seems odd that an intelligent creature can't do things characters can. Then again I guess they can do them (such as shoot a xbow) they just aren't proficient in doing so (-4 att).

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Not that I won't screw them over, of course. I just won't metagame to do it.

Well-said. I'm not suggesting you should have been targetting the familiar up to this point. As you mentioned, the squirrel is just a squirrel, and ducks into the wizard's clothing at the slightest provocation.

But if that changes and the baddies start to see a squirrel on the wizard's shoulder, wielding a light crossbow (possibly with poisoned bolts)...well, it doesn't require any metagaming to take out the armed rodent. In any standard D&D campaign, there is a heck of a lot of lethal mojo you can put on a crossbow bolt.

Re the experience. If I am to allow progression the XP would come directly from the character's Xp. Ie: the wizard can sacrifice some of its XP to advance his familiar. Again, not sure if this would work, but it still seems odd that an intelligent creature can't do things characters can. Then again I guess they can do them (such as shoot a xbow) they just aren't proficient in doing so (-4 att).

Not really. Remember that most animals don't have prehensile thumbs, so they can't wield a crossbow, even at a -4, unless it's been especially crafted to allow it. (There's also a magic item in the old 3.0 Masters of the Wild that allowed it, though I can't recall its name.)

The xp idea is an interesting one. In that case, I'd probably allow the familiar/cohort to keep both sets of hit points. The wizard is, after all, giving up hit dice of his own to give to his familiar/cohort. It seems like something of a double-whammy to require him to give up xp and deny his familiar/cohort some hit points.

As far as the familiar being an intelligent creature, the "flavor text" I've always used is that the familiar is created by the wizard taking a fragment of his own consciousness and implanting it in the cohort. That fragment grows with time but is still, basically, a piece of the wizard's being, without the potential for intellectual growth independent sentient beings enjoy. This also explains why the familiar can use all the wizard's skill ranks as if they were its own. They two share a common intellect, and the growth of that intellect occurs in the wizard, rather than the familiar.

But that's all personal "flavor text" and not rules.

 

[Luthien Greyspear]

Well-said. I'm not suggesting you should have been targetting the familiar up to this point. As you mentioned, the squirrel is just a squirrel, and ducks into the wizard's clothing at the slightest provocation.

But if that changes and the baddies start to see a squirrel on the wizard's shoulder, wielding a light crossbow (possibly with poisoned bolts)...well, it doesn't require any metagaming to take out the armed rodent. In any standard D&D campaign, there is a heck of a lot of lethal mojo you can put on a crossbow bolt.

True, true. I am not thinking of violating the laws of biology for this familiar, BTW. While Chikka will have character levels, that doesn't give her thumbs. Mostly, she would be gaining skill points and abilities like sneak attack, uncanny dodge, and trapfinding (rogue levels), bardic inspiration and lore (bard levels), and maybe even the possibility of wizard spells if she gets intelligent enough. She won't look much different than any other familiar, and certainly won't be armed any differently. (Well, maybe a wand or two. )

(BTW, how do you get the winking smiley?)