D&D 5E [+]Exploration Falls Short For Many Groups, Let’s Talk About It

[overgeeked]

4e is the only edition IME where that was true. Other editions are designed as dungeon exploration games, albeit with combat a big part of gameplay.

BTW if you want wilderness exploration to be a big deal, detail it at a similar level to dungeon exploration. The B2 Keep on the Borderlands and B5 Horror on the Hill wilderness maps are good examples, so is the wilderness in Elder Scrolls games like Skyrim. Mechanics are no substitute for an actual environment to explore!

That’s only true of those older editions because they had rules for those activities. TSR-era D&D had those rules; WotC-era D&D lacks them. WotC-era D&D does have rules for combat and little else, so it is entirely fair to call those editions monster-fighting games.

It’s not enough to have an environment to explore. You also need rules to cover that exploration. As repeated several times in the thread, without those rules there’s no game there. Not only does 5E lack those rules, what rules it does have entirely obviates the entire exploration pillar. Most races have darkvision, light as a cantrip, goodberry, create food & water, long rests resetting HP and ability score damage and conditions, easy access to healing, etc. All of those fight against making exploration mechanically meaningful. The lack of any kind of extended contest or skill challenge mechanics besides group checks is also a hindrance.

You can make exploration mechanically meaningful, it just takes hacking the game to hell and back. Shadowdark is a good example. Exploration is meaningful there. It’s built on the 5E chassis.

Cubicle 7’s Journey book is good, but awkward to implement as it bizarrely assumes you’re locked into the journey from start to finish with no ability to deviate. It’s built around starting and finishing journeys in safe places. For some reason.

 

[MerricB]

Exploration is almost entirely based on what the scenario offers.

Survival-based gameplay (that is, gathering resources, keeping track of supplies, etc.) is not part of many people's games. There are rules for gathering food in the wilderness, and they're mentioned in the PHB. (The DMG has the details). Likewise, you can get lost in the wilderness.

Do you keep track of every arrow and every ration?

I don't do that, not because I don't know the rules, but because it's not part of the type of adventure I'm trying to run.

As I've been reading through Uncharted Journeys, it occurred to me that those rules only really made sense in one of three forms of travel. The forms of travel I devised:

• The party have a destination, and they know where it is.
• The party have a destination, but they don't know exactly where it is.
• The party are just exploring.

These forms of travel require different techniques. (Uncharted Journeys is great at the first).

The third form is closest to what we describe as a Hexcrawl: exploring the (blank) map, seeing what we can find. Using hexcrawl techniques on a journey from Waterdeep to Baldur's Gate because you have an urgent mission doesn't work so well. Interactions go like this:

DM: "You see the shattered ruin of a old castle, a green light pulsing from a tower."
Players: "We'd love to investigate, but the world will end if we delay. On to Baldur's Gate!"

I've recently been running some Castles & Crusades adventures (A Stranger Among Us, The Ebon Staff) and they have this last problem in spades. They set up a mission that needs to be dealt with quickly, and then put in a bunch of side content in the wilderness travel that doesn't relate. Why are the players delaying their mission to explore? Oh wait, they're not. Let's bypass half the content!

Understanding the actual structure of your adventure is key!

But when you get to things like traps and tricks, there are underlying problems there with the mechanics and explanations of D&D that date back to the start. From reading the rulebooks (and just those, not the adventures), you'd get the impression that the way you deal with a trap is the thief makes find/remove traps rolls. And this has become even more pronounced over the years: You make dice rolls to resolve things.

However, the interest there is in the decisions the players make. Perception/Disable Device checks often remove that decision-making, instead of augmenting it. The interest in "exploring" a trap comes when the players are faced with a situation and then have to make meaningful decisions.

Consider a pit in the floor. Open, no concealment. No disabling either! How does the party deal with it, especially when not everyone can jump it safely? I've watched my players take ten minutes on such a simple device, just because they had to look at their equipment and spells and work out the best way of getting over.

Far more engagement than "there's a covered pit" "I disable it so it won't open. I rolled a 20" "you walk over safely".

There certainly is a role for mechanics, but the presentation of scenarios is key to getting exploration to work well.

Cheers,
Merric

 

[UngainlyTitan]

But that is what I'm saying.

The Search and Study actions tell the player what they can do with the lore and detection skills.
They state that Monster Identification and Clue Finding are parts of the game.

Before your PC can have the Nature or Arcana skill and easily not know what to do with them.

I am not arguing with you, we largely agree.

 

[overgeeked]

The PHB don't even tell you that you can forage for food.

Not really true. It’s listed under Wisdom (Survival) on p 178. It’s also in the Adventuring section, under Other Activities, p 183. The actual mechanics for it are in the DMG.

 

[aco175]

Seems like there are a few parts to 'exploration'. I might break it down to social, dungeon, and travel.

Travel could have less DM determine and more chart or PC choice. DMs can have a chart to determine the troubles and hazards to be found along the way by each day. PC abilities can add or subtract from number to be more or less favorable. Of course charts cannot handle all problems and terrains, so the DM or Player will have to add details. Example is that the DM rolls a problem on the chart showing a storm for the day of travel. But a PC is a ranger who has cool ability that allows them to miss the storm and have the player come up with why. Maybe he finds a cave or old barn to shelter in, or maybe he allows travel to speed up and get to town before the worst hits. Seems a bit wishy-washy and could be fleshed out more.

Dungeon exploration is more checks and rolls like combat. This is more where the success ladder comes in. Can the player decide on the outcome if they have a power that lets them do stuff. Disabling a trap or lock can be tried by everyone, but if you have proficiency in tools you get to spend something (not sure what) to bypass the problem. Example if you fain to open a lock and could open it in three rounds by make a lot of noise, but have proficiency or cool power then you can open it in two rounds without making the loud noise.

Social play is where players and DMs are split on what is roleplay and such. We have another thread around on allowing skill checks to get by guards instead having the player speak in character and the DM decides. I feel there has been a big shift over the editions to more checks over roleplay, moreso when skills came about in 3e. Some Pcs have powers that automatically do things like make a saving throw, so a PC could have an auto make on a DC20 check, just to avoid bluffing the king into giving you his crown and such.

Now adding cool powers or taking certain feats and such takes away from combat so not sure how many players want to do that.

 

[Minigiant]

That’s only true of those older editions because they had rules for those activities. TSR-era D&D had those rules; WotC-era D&D lacks them. WotC-era D&D does have rules for combat and little else, so it is entirely fair to call those editions monster-fighting games

Don't want to get into edition stuff

All editions of D&D, both TSR and WOTC, had exploration rules.

The difference between them is

• Which activities had rules
• Which activities didn't have rules
• Which books the rules were in and where
• How deeply ingrained are the exploration rules to the core system to be altered.

3e had exploration rules but they were rigidly tied to the core system and the class balance. 4e's exploration rules were behind their loooooooong class power rules so no one by 4e fans read them. And 5e's rules are in the DMG nobody reads scattered all over the place.

Layout, D&D worse enemy.
5-0 W/L record.

 

[S'mon]

That’s only true of those older editions because they had rules for those activities. TSR-era D&D had those rules; WotC-era D&D lacks them. WotC-era D&D does have rules for combat and little else, so it is entirely fair to call those editions monster-fighting games.

I run old school D&D and 5e, I can't say I've noticed a huge difference in this area. The 1e DMG has a few things like getting lost more detailed. 1e doesn't have foraging rules etc in the PHB or DMG. The main difference with 5e is the class abilities and spells that obviate survival challenges; I really hate Leomund's Tiny Hut in 5e.

The biggest difference I've seen is that old editions had group rules for stuff like morale and evasion; I find that the biggest lack since 3e.

 

[Minigiant]

Not really true. It’s listed under Wisdom (Survival) on p 178. It’s also in the Adventuring section, under Other Activities, p 183. The actual mechanics for it are in the DMG.

No it's true.

Wisdom (Survival) on p 178 describes hunting wild game.
Other Activities on p 183 states that the DM calls for the check.

 

[payn]

The middle ground is like I stated before: Stating actions you can do in the Exploration pillar to the Players in the PHB in the class or skills section but put the rules for those actions in the DMG where the DM can choose how you adjudicate them.

PF2 did this and nobody follows it

 

[Minigiant]

PF2 did this and nobody follows it

Again I like 4e, buried under a mountain of rules.

I can find the rules swords and eldritch blast in a few seconds and the game ensures every fighter and warlock sees them.