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D&D 5E Exhaustion for old 1e undead level drain

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
So, @DND_Reborn , here's the numbers - have at it! :)
I'd love to but you really won't get much out of it unless you also add how many total levels there were for each class (you had 150 fighters played, so how many levels did they all have together) since you reported the total levels lost instead of how many of that class lost levels. You're mixing data, so to speak.

Ideally, BOTH would be helpful:

A) Number of class played and B) number of those who were lost levels, and (probability of class losing a level)
C) Number of class levels and D) number of those levels lost. (proportion of levels lost)

Right now you are giving me A and D.
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I'd love to but you really won't get much out of it unless you also add how many total levels there were for each class (you had 150 fighters played, so how many levels did they all have together) since you reported the total levels lost instead of how many of that class lost levels. You're mixing data, so to speak.

Ideally, BOTH would be helpful:

A) Number of class played and B) number of those who were lost levels, and (probability of class losing a level)
That I could do, but it would count losing four levels the same as losing one. It would also not pull whether those four levels were lost all at once or in four different incidents as I don't have that info; all I have are total levels lost by character.
C) Number of class levels and D) number of those levels lost. (proportion of levels lost)
Though in theory I could do this it would take me just about forever, as I'd have to look up each character's final appearance in the game logs (which is the only place levels are noted) and mine the data manually.
Right now you are giving me A and D.
Which even there is something. For example, there's been 150 Fighters played and 53 total levels lost, which tells me that on average any given Fighter can expect to lose about 1/3 of a level in total over its career. Most will lose none, a few will lose one, while a few unlucky buggers* will make up the average and lose a bunch.

Contrast this with Necromancers, who - not surprisingly seeing as their main focus is to play with the dead - are the only class with a higher than 1 : 1 ratio of levels lost vs characters played, though the sample size is admittedly quite small.

Also, keep in mind the reason I posted these numbers is that someone was looking at whether front-liners lost more levels on average than back-liners. Very early returns would suggest it's Clerics - mid-liners - who lose the least; again not surprising as they have 'turn' and protective spells as defenses.

* - such as one of my own Fighters, who has lost eight so far. (he's entered 4th level on five different occasions, twice from below and three times from above!)
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Still confused.

Ray of Enfeeblement is a 2nd level spell in 5e that uses a different mechanic than str damage/drain or fatigue, and it was a 1st level spell in 3.5 that imposed a nonstackable penalty to str that could not take strength below 1.

Touch of Fatigue was a cantrip in 3.5 but it explicitly could only take a target to the first level of fatigue and no further and only lasted for 1 round/level.

If you changed these all to stackable non short duration fatigue levels they could add up, but there does not seem to be a necessity for that.
Apologies- I did mean Touch of Fatigue. Thanks for the correction!

Using ToF in conjunction with life draining undead in Fatigue-based life drain (FBLD) is dangerous even with its limitations.

Even if all FBLD effects are of short duration, any combination of them is just 4 hits fto render any PC unconscious, thus helpless, thus killable with a coup de grace. And most of those attacks only require successful touch attacks.
 


DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
Well, since you can't easily provide the information I asked for, we'll do our best with this:
Which even there is something. For example, there's been 150 Fighters played and 53 total levels lost, which tells me that on average any given Fighter can expect to lose about 1/3 of a level in total over its career. Most will lose none, a few will lose one, while a few unlucky buggers* will make up the average and lose a bunch.

So...
Also, keep in mind the reason I posted these numbers is that someone was looking at whether front-liners lost more levels on average than back-liners. Very early returns would suggest it's Clerics - mid-liners - who lose the least; again not surprising as they have 'turn' and protective spells as defenses.
Since this is AD&D, I am going to label this group as front-liners (FL):
  • Fighter
  • Ranger
  • Cavalier
  • Paladin
  • Ntr Clc
  • Cleric
  • War Clc
  • Monk (questionable which group...)
And this group as back-liners (BL):
  • MagicU
  • Illusion't
  • Necromcr
  • Thief
  • Assassin
  • Bard
Since I don't know the classes involved for multiclass, I cannot assign them to a group, nor the "other" instance.

Short answer:
  • If you include the data for Monks and Necromancers, there is no significant difference between FL and BL.
  • If you recognize those two classes are outliers for their groups (which they are), and compensate for that, there IS a significant different between FL and BL.
  • If you move Monks to BL instead of FL, there is no significance.

If you want to reclassify which classes belong to FL or BL, let me know.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Well, since you can't easily provide the information I asked for, we'll do our best with this:


So...

Since this is AD&D, I am going to label this group as front-liners (FL):
  • Fighter
  • Ranger
  • Cavalier
  • Paladin
  • Ntr Clc
  • Cleric
  • War Clc
  • Monk (questionable which group...)
And this group as back-liners (BL):
  • MagicU
  • Illusion't
  • Necromcr
  • Thief
  • Assassin
  • Bard
Since I don't know the classes involved for multiclass, I cannot assign them to a group, nor the "other" instance.

Short answer:
  • If you include the data for Monks and Necromancers, there is no significant difference between FL and BL.
  • If you recognize those two classes are outliers for their groups (which they are), and compensate for that, there IS a significant different between FL and BL.
  • If you move Monks to BL instead of FL, there is no significance.

If you want to reclassify which classes belong to FL or BL, let me know.
I usually break it down into three groups: front-line, back-line, and mid-line; the mid-line types being those who can fight if they have to but are probably better off mostly leaving it to the paid professionals.

My breakdown:

Front-line: Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Cavalier, WarCleric
Mid-line: Cleric, Thief, Assassin, Bard, Monk
Back-line: MagicUser, Illusionist, Necromancer, NatureCleric

The other main DM in our crew suggests I should add in total adventure count as another layer of data, to give a sense of career length and how often one might expect to get drained per number of adventure played. This would affect Necromancers most of all. When I'm done - and it won't be tonight :) - I'll p.m. you the numbers unless anyone else wants to see them here.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
Ok, back from lunch. So, if you want to have a discussion (and not just argue)...

Since I've always provided justification for my position, as well as asking questions, you should have your answer by now...

This depends greatly on the style of game you are running IMO.

In a sense, yes, but as you can see below, not so much in the end,

If you mostly do dungeon-crawl, then the party starting the fight first depends enormously on how successful you are in infiltrating the dungeon (complex, castle, etc.) and how well the DM runs the "reality" of the location. IME too many DMs treat encounters almost like islands, where one has little if any impact on the other. Once the PCs fail to move to the next area successfully without alerting the entire complex (in a fashion dependent on the scenario of the adventure, of course), the PCs can often expect to be "encountered" as often as they do the encountering.

This is exactly my point, that is at least 50% of the time where the PCs choose their formation, meaning that they will protect their casters at start (and see below for how things develop).

Wandering monsters (if used, it is old-school for many games IME) will more than often initiate the fight.

Why ?

During travel, random encounters are nearly always initiated by the monsters, but this also depends a lot on the scene, what the encounter is, and how the DM sets it up.

Again, why ? You are assuming that PCs are always surprised by the encounter, but there is no reason for this. And it's not entirely up to the DM, how the PCs use scouts is important as well, and if I was a PC in a campaign where the DM constantly ignores all my precautions to spring surprises on me from the rear, I would be very frustrated.

Once more, in these cases, there is no more reason for the PCs to initiate than the monsters, and nothing says that even random encounters have to be encountered in a fight. If they are detected early enough by a scout, they could (and certainly should, in at least some cases) be avoided.

If the PCs start the fight, they usually have only one point of entry, but often need a martial to watch the rear because very often the enemy will move to flank and attack from behind if possible.

Again, you are assuming that the fact that the PCs have the initiative will mean that the enemy can always counterattack from the rear. Why ? And you seem to be under the constant assumption that the enemy outnumbers the PCs, which is certainly not the case all the time.

While many monsters are not very intelligent, the average INT for anything CR 1/2 or higher is 10, and it rises with CR. So, with the exception of super-low CR creatures (many are beasts and such), most foes WILL be smart enough to employ tactics that suite them best in defeating the party. I'm not saying those tactics have to be brilliant or anything, but flanking and rear attacks are not hard concepts when you have numbers.

Again, why should the enemy have more numbers. In 5e, in particular, the encounters are often evenly matched or even in the PC's favours because of action economy impact.

Given that most parties have 4 PCs, in general if you want an encounter to be any real challenge at all, CR monsters half the level or lower of the PCs will at least match their number, of often outnumber them.

Again, why are you systematically using small CR monsters ? Nothing implies that anywhere in the rules.

Eve BBEG encounters will have minions to support the BBEG by harassing fringe party members when the front-liners engage.

Again, not necessarily.

FWIW, as DM, I also try to have my encounters be a mixture of CRs (if it makes sense to do so), and have smaller CR minions in larger numbers because with bounded accuracy they can make a difference.

And that is your choice as a DM, but nothing either in the rules or in the published adventures make it so that all the encounters or even the majority are built like that. Actually, looking at published encounters, these are by far the minority.

At any rate, casters in the rear is a mistake more often than not, they should be center of the party, or they are subject to all kinds of nastiness. Depending on the encounter set-up, even then they aren't necessarily "safe" by any means compared to the martials. More intelligent foes will attack casters with range, numbers, flanking, or whatever. If martials are engaged, they have to disengage to help the caster or wait until they are otherwise free to do so. Your "rear-guard" might be a ranged martial or mobile one who can move up if it is safe to leave the casters behind.

The problem is that you are assuming that monsters are always intelligent, always have superior numbers, and that the PCs are globally stupid and don't take into account the monsters tactic, who can always outflank and take them from the rear.

These are encounters from Rime of the Frostmaiden:


There are quite a few with unintellignet beasts, in most of the cases the PCs outnumber their adversaries, and nothing says that one party will surprise the other or have a tactical advantage that allows him to outflank/surround the other. It entirely depends on the circumstances. And there are few cases of "boss + minions".

I understand that's your favourite style, and I'm fine with it for some encounters, but again it's not the general case, and as a player I would be very frustrated if all the encounters turned out into a DM vs. Players situation where the DM is basically there to explain to the players that he can outthink them tactically using monsters designed for this.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
Since I've always provided justification for my position, as well as asking questions, you should have your answer by now...



In a sense, yes, but as you can see below, not so much in the end,



This is exactly my point, that is at least 50% of the time where the PCs choose their formation, meaning that they will protect their casters at start (and see below for how things develop).



Why ?



Again, why ? You are assuming that PCs are always surprised by the encounter, but there is no reason for this. And it's not entirely up to the DM, how the PCs use scouts is important as well, and if I was a PC in a campaign where the DM constantly ignores all my precautions to spring surprises on me from the rear, I would be very frustrated.

Once more, in these cases, there is no more reason for the PCs to initiate than the monsters, and nothing says that even random encounters have to be encountered in a fight. If they are detected early enough by a scout, they could (and certainly should, in at least some cases) be avoided.



Again, you are assuming that the fact that the PCs have the initiative will mean that the enemy can always counterattack from the rear. Why ? And you seem to be under the constant assumption that the enemy outnumbers the PCs, which is certainly not the case all the time.



Again, why should the enemy have more numbers. In 5e, in particular, the encounters are often evenly matched or even in the PC's favours because of action economy impact.



Again, why are you systematically using small CR monsters ? Nothing implies that anywhere in the rules.



Again, not necessarily.



And that is your choice as a DM, but nothing either in the rules or in the published adventures make it so that all the encounters or even the majority are built like that. Actually, looking at published encounters, these are by far the minority.



The problem is that you are assuming that monsters are always intelligent, always have superior numbers, and that the PCs are globally stupid and don't take into account the monsters tactic, who can always outflank and take them from the rear.

These are encounters from Rime of the Frostmaiden:



There are quite a few with unintellignet beasts, in most of the cases the PCs outnumber their adversaries, and nothing says that one party will surprise the other or have a tactical advantage that allows him to outflank/surround the other. It entirely depends on the circumstances. And there are few cases of "boss + minions".

I understand that's your favourite style, and I'm fine with it for some encounters, but again it's not the general case, and as a player I would be very frustrated if all the encounters turned out into a DM vs. Players situation where the DM is basically there to explain to the players that he can outthink them tactically using monsters designed for this.
You are making so many assumptions here I can't even be bothered to reply any further.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
I usually break it down into three groups: front-line, back-line, and mid-line; the mid-line types being those who can fight if they have to but are probably better off mostly leaving it to the paid professionals.

My breakdown:

Front-line: Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Cavalier, WarCleric
Mid-line: Cleric, Thief, Assassin, Bard, Monk
Back-line: MagicUser, Illusionist, Necromancer, NatureCleric

The other main DM in our crew suggests I should add in total adventure count as another layer of data, to give a sense of career length and how often one might expect to get drained per number of adventure played. This would affect Necromancers most of all. When I'm done - and it won't be tonight :) - I'll p.m. you the numbers unless anyone else wants to see them here.
If you can p.m. the raw data, actually class and levels lost for each character played instead of the sums, I could give you a better breakdown using your three groups.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
You are making so many assumptions here I can't even be bothered to reply any further.

What ? Assumptions that all the fights are not PCs being surprised and flanked by superior numbers of adversaries ? Because, honestly, if you start by accepting that PCs start about 50% of the fights and that, on top of that, they outnumber their adversaries 50% of the time (which I thing is fairly easy as an assumption), you end up with only 25% of the fights where the enemy is actually really capable of severely outmanoeuvring the PCs, which is certainly not a majority. And even if you tinker a bit with the numbers above, it will still leave a minority of cases when you take into account the other parameters, such as party tactics, intelligence of adversaries, tactical situation where it's even possible to outflank, etc.

I don't need more assumptions than this.
 

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