D&D 5E Encounter Balance holds back 5E

[Parmandur]

Okay? But this isn't a combat simulator board game. There is so much more to it, and some groups don't even think the "engine" is the most interesting part.

What I object to is the idea that the "engine" is all there is to the game, or the only thing that matters. That's what I hear when people say "5E wants a lot of combat" or "5E is fundamentally about resource management."

D&D as a coherent set of rules consist at their base (base, foundation, fundament) of rules for resolving individual combats within a matrix of resources attrition and management. The D&D police aren't going to come after anyone who avoids combat or who doesn't push the resource element at the center of the game, sure. But that is still what the rules and game products are built around at a fundamental level.

 

[jayoungr]

The D&D police aren't going to come after anyone who avoids combat or who doesn't push the resource element at the center of the game, sure. But that is still what the rules and game products are built around at a fundamental level.

I think at this point we're just quibbling about the definition of "fundamental." I've given mine, many times over.

 

[Parmandur]

I think at this point we're just quibbling about the definition of "fundamental." I've given mine, many times over.

Sure, probably. I'm using tje dictionary definition of fundamental to discuss the core principles and rules the game runs on, whether they are closely attended to or used or not.

 

[jayoungr]

Sure, probably. I'm using tje dictionary definition of fundamental to discuss the core principles and rules the game runs on, whether they are closely attended to or used or not.

And by my definition, what you are calling "the [entire] game" is only a subset of the total. Therefore, the resource thing is not "fundamental" to it because it only affects a part of what I call the game. So we're quibbling about the definitions of both "fundamental" and "game."

 

[Parmandur]

And by my definition, what you are calling "the [entire] game" is only a subset of the total.

Everything in modern D&D is designed around the resource attrition game, and plugs and feeds directly into and from it. Certainly a given table might not pay much attention to the floor they are walking on, but fundamentally the floor there.

 

[jayoungr]

Everything in modern D&D is designed around the resource attrition game, and plugs and feeds directly into and from it.

I edited my post above. Also, see this post, which may have gotten lost because it's at the bottom of the last page.

 

[Parmandur]

Therefore, the resource thing is not "fundamental" to it because it only affects a part of what I call the game. So we're quibbling about the definitions of both "fundamental" and "game."

But what do we mean by "definition"?

 

[Maxperson]

The engine may very well come into use when resolving things like how to get past that red dragon--it probably involves skill checks, for example. But it may or may not involve use of limited resources like spell slots, so that may not have much effect on whether you're at peak operation.

(ETA) Imagine that the level 5 party is trying to get past the ancient red dragon. The bard gets a 23 on a Performance roll to enthrall the dragon with tales of how the party found a stash of more treasure than they could carry away, convincing the dragon that there's a huge pile of gold nearby just waiting to be added to its hoard. Meanwhile, the rogue gets a 27* on a Stealth check to sneak behind the dragon's back and steal the key to the Hidden Fortress of Marzuk without being noticed. The 5E mechanics were used, no limited resources were expended, the engine was not operating at its peak, and at the end of the evening, the players of those two characters feel awesome because they contributed to the session, even though the bard still has the majority of spell slots left when the PCs camp for the night.

*Roll of 17 on the die, 18 (+4) DEX, +3 proficiency bonus, Expertise in Stealth (so a +10 bonus in all). An ancient red dragon has a passive Perception of 26.

This isn't really realistic in my opinion. Both the bard and the rogue would have to roll really high for this to happen and if either one fails, the party gets eaten. TPK. No 5th level group in their right mind would attempt this without using magical resources if they have any, in order to boost chances of success. No resources to expend, no attempt at an ancient red dragon.

 

[Maxperson]

But what do we mean by "definition"?

That depends on what the definition of is is.

 

[jayoungr]

This isn't really realistic in my opinion. Both the bard and the rogue would have to roll really high for this to happen and if either one fails, the party gets eaten. TPK.

It's just a hypothetical example of how you can have a great session and make players feel like their PCs are useful while using 5E's mechanics but without doing resource management. Don't get too hung up on the specifics. The principle is the same whether the opponent is an ancient red dragon or a green hag.